pigchampion Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Ground up or on rappel can both end up with too many bolts and bolts in the wrong places when idiots are pulling the trigger. assuming everyone is an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 .......If you want to argue for "restraint" great no problem. I think you could probably stake out a reasoned position. To argue for restraint and ground-up are contradictory goals particularly in the northwest where the rock is frequently dirty. You are far more likely to get well placed bolts in the right spots using a top-down method. Going ground up you will quickly -- put bolts in the wrong place (hard to clip, not useful etc) -- botch placements (poor holes or spinners) -- put bolts where natural gear exists (hidden behind a lump of moss or in place of a loose flake) -- put in too many bolts (ground up is scary!) Basically if you accept some level of bolting you should probably argue for an ethic that minimizes the ultimate number of holes drilled and bolts placed. Ground up results in botched jobs that will eventually require more drilling. (Why am I trying to reason in this thread?????) I'm with you on all but one point, but having hand drilled on lead I can assure you there will be LESS, not MORE bolts on most ground up routes. The bolts will need to be replaced sooner though. Around here on basalt, hand drilled bolts often are on the kind of stances where you will snap an ankle if you fall from above it. On granite, a stance will often be a little swell or dish, on basalt, it's usually a ledge of some sort. I think it should be totally an area dependent discussion. Smith Rocks is different than Index and Beacon and the bolting traditions have evolved in the communities differently for reasons that are grounded in a true reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm with you on all but one point, but having hand drilled on lead I can assure you there will be LESS, not MORE bolts on most ground up routes. Bill. I think he is trying to make the point that at FIRST there will not be as much, but after it gets retroed (due to ground up poor bolting) there will be more bolts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Climb at your own risk is entirely correct. The issue with the rr bolt wasn't about that - it was about correcting the one place at Beacon where someone could raise a stink about a route's guidebook rating versus the reality of it, and do it in way that would lead to less 'reasonable' infill bolting in the name of safety (i.e. making most routes more like YW p1.). Again, the perverse logic of adding one bolt on an extremely misrepresented route in order to prevent widespread infilling in the event of a death on said route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigchampion Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) what's is the name of the route that was bolted? too bad that bolt isn't there anymore, sounds like a great climb. why did you let everyone bully you into chopping it????the damage was already done. The route is called '[un]Reasonable Richard', further adding to the innocuous nature of the danger. It isn't a great climb. No one bullied me and I defy anyone to locate where that bolt once was. At this point I'm pretty good at making bolts disappear, epoxying over the hole, and camo'ing the result in shape, color, and texture. Reasonable Richard is a two star climb and has a PG-13 rating which might indicate to most that there is some business to attend on the route. i've done routes that other people thought were great and i didn't... doesn't make my opinion status quo no does i? and the route also say's there is a bolt on it, but the book also states that there is a tree at the top of the ramp on the s.e. corner which i heard fell off last year, i doubt you're going to plant a tree. Edited August 13, 2009 by pigchampion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 True dat Kev. I think all of us agree that crafting a line that others will find of value is a consideration. No matter if it's JH trad'ing Menopause, that's a consideration. If it's a knob route with no cracks, it's a consideration as well. What do we owe those that follow? What is value? Do we owe them anything? Nothing? Adventure? Safety? Tough and complex choices much of it based on what we each bring to the party from our own life experience and attitudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Hey Joe, I like you just fine, so no offense, but since your stated goal with regards to climbing is to chase off 85% of the people currently engaged in "your" sport, your advice tends towards selfish self-serving bullshit. Your gear skills are admirable, as is your personal approach and acceptance of risk. It seems to work well for you. Note that the key word is YOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Off, you are correct. My intent in climbing has always been entirely selfish and self-serving - I climb for no one but myself and the fewer climbers the better. BITD we started and went climbing in no small part to escape the mindless suburban horde; in our wildest dreams it never would have occured to us to invite them all climbing, or to create vertical environments where bimbos can be entertained. We liked it very much that the hordes didn't climb. Does that sound harsh...? P.S. How do you think all the alpine folk would feel about fixed lines up all the Cascade classics...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Bill, pretty much my main consideration on Menopause has been protecting it at the minimum level necessary to still be able to find someone sufficiently lunatic enough to climb it with me. Since Shane left for Boulder I'm scouting again for someone to come up and help me with the next roof. Though I guess I will concede to having swapped a couple of fixed pins for Crack'N Ups and small ballnuts on LW - must have been a moment of weakness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) I like the solitude of climbing, but if you're going to crag in a popular area, a few bimbos (I prefer the term hotties, personally), are just fine with me. A lot of bimbos these days can outclimb me with both slender, well manicured hands tied behind their exquisitely arched backs...preferably with strips of alabaster silk. Some of them even come to the crag...are you sitting down?...without any men! Edited August 14, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Off, you are correct. My intent in climbing has always been entirely selfish and self-serving - I climb for no one but myself and the fewer climbers the better. BITD we started and went climbing in no small part to escape the mindless suburban horde; in our wildest dreams it never would have occured to us to invite them all climbing, or to create vertical environments where bimbos can be entertained. We liked it very much that the hordes didn't climb. Does that sound harsh...? fuck, isn't that the supposed problem with "sportos" - self-serving SOBs bolting routes with no restraint for their own selfish motives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 No, I'd say more like ego maniacs building attempting to build a reputation under the guise of 'community service'. Anyone getting on my routes is more likely to rave at me than about me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I'm kind of with Joseph, here. I go out because I like to. Once in a very great while I'll go out with someone because they want to try the experience. It seems like that this attitude also describes most climbers I've met. And there's nothing wrong with that. Catholic guilt be damned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I'm kind of with Joseph, here. I go out because I like to. Once in a very great while I'll go out with someone because they want to try the experience. It seems like that this attitude also describes most climbers I've met. And there's nothing wrong with that. Catholic guilt be damned! When I don't want to see other climbers, I pick a route that is likely to not have anyone there. Or I go midweek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigchampion Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 No, I'd say more like ego maniacs building attempting to build a reputation under the guise of 'community service'. Anyone getting on my routes is more likely to rave at me than about me. no, they'll probably write a guide book, throw your routes in them with some bright shiny stars and wait for the inevitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigchampion Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I'm kind of with Joseph, here. I go out because I like to. Once in a very great while I'll go out with someone because they want to try the experience. It seems like that this attitude also describes most climbers I've met. And there's nothing wrong with that. Catholic guilt be damned! When I don't want to see other climbers, I pick a route that is likely to not have anyone there. Or I go midweek. i eat heuvos rancheros the night before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 ...throw your routes in them with some bright shiny stars... That, we don't have to ever worry about. No stars for Joey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I'm kind of with Joseph, here. I go out because I like to. Once in a very great while I'll go out with someone because they want to try the experience. It seems like that this attitude also describes most climbers I've met. And there's nothing wrong with that. Catholic guilt be damned! When I don't want to see other climbers, I pick a route that is likely to not have anyone there. Or I go midweek. Yeah, solitude is pretty easy to find, even nowadays. For anyone who can't seem to find it...learn to bushwhack. If you grouse about areas like Vantage and Smith or any crag close to a city being too crowded, though, you might as well add a soapbox to your rack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I like the solitude of climbing, but if you're going to crag in a popular area, a few bimbos (I prefer the term hotties, personally), are just fine with me. A lot of bimbos these days can outclimb me with both slender, well manicured hands tied behind their exquisitely arched backs...preferably with strips of alabaster silk. Some of them even come to the crag...are you sitting down?...without any men! was that hard to type one-handed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 dammit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Well, they way things are, sure - no doubt. But choices were made along the way; choices I for one, and maybe just one which is fine, think were ill-advised. What I guess is the 85% of the demographic which is wholly sustained by bolts is a direct consequence of those choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigchampion Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 ...throw your routes in them with some bright shiny stars... That, we don't have to ever worry about. No stars for Joey. make a mold of yourself, put it at the base of your climbs and if people don't fit the mold they'll now not to persist in the climbing community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) I'm pretty much an alpine climber, so the whole bolt thing just isn't my battle. Every once in a while an old piton falls out of some moss filled crack somewhere up there, or a glacier melts, or a mountain suddenly gets a thousand feet shorter, but that's about the extent of the change to the physical environment in that world. When I go cragging, I kind of expect a manufactured environment, including trad routes, which tend to be wire brushed, etc. Edited August 14, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 ...make a mold of yourself, put it at the base of your climbs and if people don't fit the mold they'll know not to persist in the climbing community. No need. My climbs are a mold of myself; if people don't fit that mold they probably they probably won't like or climb my routes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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