layton Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Althetes often use carb loading to keep from a caloric deficit race time, but water is usually readily available...not always for climbers. One thing we do is chug as much as we can at the base or at the car. Is this enough? Just eating a bunch of gu pre-climb wouldn't fill your glycogen store (although it would help)...is the same true with water. I'm looking for concrete evidence (i.e. articles or published info) that explains how much water you need to drink and how long you need to drink it for to reach your total body's water carrying capacity? I'm expecting the answer to be just drink water until your pee is clear and copious, and continue drinking water until your climb starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 would up'ing your sodium and potassium increase your water retention and would that retained water be usable...or just pissed away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Just eating a bunch of gu pre-climb wouldn't fill your glycogen store (although it would help).. I doubt Gu gets converted to glycogen in any useful timescale. Gu > blood glucose-monomers is what that product is all about. Your water question is interesting and I don't know the answer, but I'm sure that "electrolyte loading" would increase a body's water carrying capacity. If you find some good answers, please share. edit: Quick pubmed search gives these interesting results: Link1 Hydration recommendations for sport 2008. Link2American College of Sports Medicine position stand. Exercise and fluid replacement Link3 Fluids and hydration in prolonged endurance performance I can only see abstracts; don't have academic access. Edited June 15, 2009 by Alpinfox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 This link isn't directly related to your question, but I think it's amazing that someone actually did this study (and someone funded it!). oxygenated water does not improve exercise performance......DUH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 I'll try and read those articles at work tomorrow. That whole oxygenated water is so retarded. What part of the lung connects to the stomach? Same with oxygen bars. Hmmm, free radicals anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Carb loading the night before doesnt work: # 12 Hydration: basics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Hydration: basics according to the symptoms listed here, i appear to be continously deficient of 5% of my body weight in water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I think we both know why too... speaking of a few fun facts for you to consider my good friend: Alcohol: suppresses fat metabolism up to 30%. depresses testosterone secretion via “direct inhibition at the testicular level” interferes with post-exercise glycogen synthesis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 you can have my bottle a booze when it slips out of my sweaty, sweaty hands bitch! the last thing i need is more testosterone i try to only when i'm awake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 You have it... just be smart when you do! Timing is key! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iluka Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 The kidneys do a pretty good job of regulating your sodium and potassium balance. If you bump up your intake of salt then the kidneys will often increase sodium excretion via the urine and you also see more sodium excretion in sweat via the skin. If you retain salt, you will retain water but that water has a habit of not staying in the vascular space and, instead, tends to build up in the tissues (eg. lower extremity edema). That being said, maintaining salt intake is important and it should be part of what you consume during the day, particularly when dehydrated. If all you do is guzzle water when you're dehydrated without any sodium or electrolyte repletion, it's possible to develop hyponatremia. This has been described in marathon runners for example. There are things out there in the literature with recommendations for hydration and sodium intake. The problem is that much of these recommendations don't have much in the way of research/data to support them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordansahls Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) You don't want to just drink copious amounts of water, it will lead to hyponatremia (low concentrations of sodium in the blood). Its why you need electrolytes with your water if you are going to be exerting yourself hard for more than a few hours. The problem with hyponatremia is that your body will get rid of other electrolytes to make sure that your bodies electrolyte ratio's are all 'proper'. Basically, if you get low in sodium, your going to probably get low in potassium and magnesium. I cant get access to this research paper, but here is the abstract: ====================================================== Exercise-associated hyponatremia: A review. Ask the experts Emergency Medicine. 13(1):17-27, March 2001. Speedy, Dale B 1; Noakes, Timothy D 2; Schneider, Claudia 3 Abstract: This paper reviews the extensive literature on hyponatremia, a common and potentially serious complication of ultra-distance exercise. Fluid overload is the likely aetiology. Fluid intakes are typically high in athletes who develop hyponatremia, although hyponatremia can occur with relatively modest fluid intakes. The development of fluid overload and hyponatremia in the presence of a modest fluid intake raises the possibility that athletes with this condition may have an impaired renal capacity to excrete a fluid load. The bulk of evidence favours fluid retention in the extracellular space (dilutional hyponatremia) rather than fluid remaining unabsorbed in the intestine. Female gender is an important risk factor for the development of hyponatremia. Management and prevention of exercise-associated hyponatremia are discussed. See Commentary, page 5. © 2001 Blackwell Science Ltd. =================================================================== Also, not going for a sales pitch, but if you want to hydrate will, get some of this stuff: http://www.nuun.com/ If I don't hydrate well, I get premature heartbeats (heart skips a beat). If I didn't use NUUN tablets in my water, I would be a wreck. The tablets are especially nice because they are lighter than something like Gatorade, and they have no High Fructose Corn syrup in them. Anyway, check it out. Edited June 15, 2009 by jordansahls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hafilax Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Mark Twight in Extreme Alpinism and Craig Connelly in The Mountaineering Handbook basically agree on a good climbing hydration and nutrition strategy based on sound science. I can't remember the details but the essences are: -Gastric emptying, the process of passing water from the stomach to the intestines, is optimized by sport gels (Gu, Carb Boom etc.) and you can drink about a litre/quart an hour with one gel. Hydration is the number one concern and even at that rate you will lose water throughout the day. Basically you need a certain amount of sugar in your stomach in order for it to pass water through. Most of what people think of as a lack of food energy such as brain fog and lack of energy is in fact due to dehydration. -Energy mostly comes from fat stores. You get little energy from food eaten during the day although some food is good for tricking the body out of feeling hungry. Anything that is hard to digest will slow you down. I think that there is a common misconception that gels are for energy when in fact they are designed for hydration. -Replacing electrolytes is also important. They both recommend adding powdered electrolytes and a bit of protein and even creatine (for recovery) to your water to supplement what is in the gels. -Carb loading the night before. You store a bit of extra energy in your liver that is easily accessed early in the day. It gives you a bit of extra energy but not much. The article above seemed to speak against prolonged carb loading. I think it has been shown to be effective if only done the night before. -You can prehydrate to some extent but exceeding the maximum that your body can do through gastric emptying before the climb will not help. Be sure to drink lots of water the day before in order to not start the next day in a water deficit and drink tons of water after intense activity especially if doing a multi day activity. I've tried the gel and water all day thing and it works well for me. I haven't taken it to the next step with the electrolytes but I'm sure that will help as well. I climbed the Buttress on the Chief on Saturday drinking water with gels and a cliff bar with good success. I didn't get the bonk that I would get in the past at about pitch 8 and I am not exactly in top shape right now. I can barely walk today. I did have to carry quite a bit of water in a hydration pack but I think it was worth it. It surprised me how closely those books outlined the same recommendations and they are science based with good evidence from endurance athletic events. I highly recommend reading those sections if you are interested in the food science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I don't know anything about the technical details of the topic, only my experience. I know for myself that eating a good load and balance of proteins and carbs the night before and then drinking a liter of water over the hour immediately prior to climbing sets me up for a solid day of climbing with very minimal need for food or water during the day. This approach has worked for me over decades now and I'm always amazed when I see folks bring and downing large quantities of food and and water while climbing. The idea of it almost makes me ill, particularly when watching them eat so much. I've proven this approach works for me on climbs like Epinephrine where we each climbed with a 1-liter camelsback of water and a cliff bar and felt completely fine with it until we were back to the car for more water and back to town for food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordansahls Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 With regards to Mark Twight's book "Extreme Alpinism", you can look at it for free right now on Google books, scroll down to page 65 to get his take on nutrition. Unfortunately, the pages on hydration have been blocked. link: http://books.google.com/books?id=Y_26yT9Nn7UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=extreme+alpinism#PPT68,M1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The Paleo Diet for Athletes by Joe Friel and Loren Cordain is another pretty good reference, specifically the introductory sections on timing of food/fluid intake w.r.t training and event scheduling. Similar to Halifax's post above but with some specific numbers. There is also discussions for strategies for determining your personal water balance depending on event duration and environmental factors etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 hard to discern what is fad, and what is good science...even with a book or research paper to back it up. iluka had the best answer so far imho. I was suspecting that the increased water retention would be locked away outside the vascular system. links like john and fern offered are interesting, but any research done by a company (see antioxidant drink research!) always makes me wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 the only good and relevant science is personal empiricism. n=1 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 I am my own n of one study Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Do this google search: "Human Performance Laboratory" Hyrdation One of the links (from 2005) in particular looks interesting: ACSM Roundtable on Hydration and Physical Activity: Consensus Statements The UConn HPL looks to be a leader in this sort of research... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogen Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 the only good and relevant science is personal empiricism. n=1 . this There is way too much variation from one person to the next to form any useful consensus on this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordansahls Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Here is a good paper: the National Athletic Trainers' Association Position Statement: Fluid Replacement for Athletes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mneagle Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Forget oxygenated water, THIS is moving in just down the street. I can hardly wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) no wonder the world hates us. We are spending good money blowing oxygen at our face. Wouldn't a $3 walmart fan do the same thing? on a positive note, the construction photos is a wonderful thing. I have never seen such a clean construction site. Not a piece of crap anywhere. Good looking framing too. Edited June 18, 2009 by genepires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I'm looking for concrete evidence (i.e. articles or published info) that explains how much water you need to drink and how long you need to drink it for to reach your total body's water carrying capacity? I wonder if the DOD was able to keep any statistics from Gitmo detainee waterboarding sessions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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