kevbone Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Kevin, so long as you're here and know both places, how do Ozone and Beacon grades compare? The reality is two different kinds of climbing bring two different sets of standards. IMO. I always compare what ever I do to blownout. Of course blownout IMO is 10.c. Not 10.a. Jills thrill is 10.a not 5.9. etc…..etc…..Beacon has old school ratings. I am fine with that. The grades I gave to the climbs I established were a compilation of 13 years of climbing on my part and other climbers telling me what they thought. Ozone and Beacon on worlds apart from the style point of view. Clipping bolts and placing gear are completely different. It is apples and oranges. I think Ozone grades are money. Spot on. IMO. I have been told that some of the climbs are soft and some are stiff. That would put in right in the middle of the map IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Beacon has old school ratings. Isn't that what Donini is talking about then...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Wouldn't Tahquitz, where the YDS was first devised, be the gold standard by which to measure other area's degrees of soft & hard? Though I think that similar to other older areas, there can be some pretty stiff 5.9's that date to a time when people resisted violating the logic of a decimal system that topped out at 5.9 (5.10 being the same as 5.1 mathematically speaking) Of course, my fuzzy 25 year old memories from my last outing there are of no use for making comparisons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Joseph, old school = sandbag, oneupsmanship has always been around, and locals have always delighted in seeing visitors flail at a grade they didn't expect to. The "Joshua Tree 5.9" was a classic example... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 There is a climb at Broughtons, it’s a overhanging crack ( physical graffiti) that Bob Mcgowen called 10.d. He told me he rated it that because that was the top of the scale when he first climbed it. Most people I know think its more like 11.a. Even Sowerby (notorious sandbagger) thinks its 11.a. Old school does not mean shit. It’s just a grade, agree or don’t agree. Question is…..did have a good time climbing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Yeah Doug, but it moved to Yosemite and there was a real list of routes in the valley that identified what that grade was. Like Serenity Sons defined what a 5.11 was. It was the standard that other routes were suppose to be measured by to determine if another route was in fact a 5.11. Was it as hard as Serenity Crack 3rd pitch? Until they downgraded it to 10d:-) Somethings never change though, and that's these kinds of discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 "This Donini fellow" be the man twenty + years ago and then some, and he still is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Joseph, old school = sandbag, oneupsmanship has always been around, and locals have always delighted in seeing visitors flail at a grade they didn't expect to. The "Joshua Tree 5.9" was a classic example... I first started leading 5.10 consistently during a six-week stay in JTree, just so I didn't have to get on any more 5.9s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I first started leading 5.10 consistently during a six-week stay in JTree, just so I didn't have to get on any more 5.9s. Thats funny. 5.9 and 5.10 at Josh are the same IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 "This Donini fellow" be the man twenty + years ago and then some, and he still is. Dude....if you're going to do it, do it right! Who are they cheering about? You got only two choices: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 So blow jobs are the downfall of climbing. Interesting theory. Huh? I have no prob with BJ's. (Get me drunk enough and I might let you "speak into the microphone"). In fact, I think rock climbers should get BJ's, I just think they should get them the old-fashioned way. They should earn them. you volunteering your services?? BAWAHAHAHA SUCK IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 i wasn't saying that you, (but poop and joseph were) were griping about ratings...I was just saying that at most, maybe its a letter grade off one way or the other... i honestly think its more what ben said...ie, you will find what you do more of easier... My apologies. I didn't intend to complain about anything, only to offer an accurate history of the how and why behind soft sport grades. You're old enough to know I'm right. Do I have a problem with soft sport grades? Not really. When one needs an ego stroke, he knows where to go. The only potential/theoretical problem is when a sport climber decides to borrow a rack. Perhaps he wouldn't expect to have to climb a full grade lower, but he'll figure it out quickly and probably won't get hurt. I've dabbled in sport climbing, just a couple of trips to Smith Rock when it was raining everywhere else. I used to think sport climbing was better than no climbing. Now when the rain falls I'd prefer to ride my mountain bike or hike/scramble. Smith Rock is a long drive....and for what? What I've noticed about sport climbing is that out-of-doors, it's pretty easy. Off the couch and with a beer gut, I climbed 5.11 all day in North Bend. Similar results at Smith. In fact, one year at Smith I got an 11d first try, tied in with a bowline on a coil. With a big-boobied belayer who left six feet of slack in the dirt at all times. The same year I would routinely get shut down on 5.10+ gear climbs. Out doors, sport climbing is easy. All that is required is 2.5 seconds of staying power to make the clips. Natural rock offers purchases for your feet that your typical sport climber fails to see quickly. At the gym, I find the lead climbs incredibly hard. I used to train Sunday mornings with Scotty Hopkins down at the VC and later the VW. I'd be blasted after a couple of 5.10/5.11- leads. The climbs seemed extra physical. You couldn't employ precise foot work to minimize the pump. Out of doors, these grades seemed easy enough to climb all day, sport or gear. see kimmo...i soooo told you that blue/hot pink taped route was 5.X+ at least...even poopy thinks so... Pope...your memory is fading...you told me about the whole 5.11+/bowline thing happening at Little Si (I still have the pm), you even told me the route name (Aborigine)...funny thing...that was a burdo rating when you were up there...the laugher is that its checking in around 11- (a or b) now...maybe it happened at smith also... I'm struggling to think of any 10+ gear routes that i know of that are as hard as the 11+ smith routes (although i do know of some 11+/12- gear routes there that are stout)...maybe some specifics here will help me??? I'm getting old to so my memory is fading as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 To measure your ego! The Kevbone [predicatable and meaningless] Mantra! Uhhh...kev...you've been SLAMMED by the dawg!!! Talk about a bruised ego... :lmao: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 There is a climb at Broughtons, it’s a overhanging crack ( physical graffiti) that Bob Mcgowen called 10.d. He told me he rated it that because that was the top of the scale when he first climbed it. Most people I know think its more like 11.a. Even Sowerby (notorious sandbagger) thinks its 11.a. Old school does not mean shit. It’s just a grade, agree or don’t agree. Question is…..did have a good time climbing it? perfect example of what i'm talking about...one letter grade in difference...big f-ing deal...move on already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 To measure your ego! The Kevbone [predicatable and meaningless] Mantra! Uhhh...kev...you've been SLAMMED by the dawg!!! Talk about a bruised ego... :lmao: Plunger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 see kimmo...i soooo told you that blue/hot pink taped route was 5.X+ at least...even poopy thinks so... I'm struggling to think of any 10+ gear routes that i know of that are as hard as the 11+ smith routes (although i do know of some 11+/12- gear routes there that are stout)...maybe some specifics here will help me??? I'm getting old to so my memory is fading as well... yeah well he's old and fat too. but i'd also like to know what 10+ routes he's talking about that he claims to be harder than smith 11+....maybe pope's just a very gifted sport climber, and sucks at trad? he is (was?) built more like a sporto! index sport harder than trad, at same grade: -model worker, harder than sagg full (and i think harder than jap gardens, even tho jg rated 11+). -same with wham. -little jupiter, also a lot harder than jg, or iron horse. little si comps with index trad: -aborigine, similar to sagg full, same rating. -iron horse, similar to rainy day women, same rating. -thin fingers, easier than psychowussy, same rating. i'm not up on trad harder than 12-, so my comparisons stop there, but up to this point, it's all in the same ball-park to me. and like you said rudy, it's kinda funny and silly to quibble over a couple of letter grades, since it is all so subjective and dependent on particular beta and conditions and body size etc etc etc. climbing doesn't lend itself quite as nicely to "objective" criteria, like a 4 minute mile or somesuch. bottom line, try harder than you can, have fun and never say "take" on rp burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Pope...your memory is fading...you told me about the whole 5.11+/bowline thing happening at Little Si (I still have the pm), you even told me the route name (Aborigine)...funny thing...that was a burdo rating when you were up there...the laugher is that its checking in around 11- (a or b) now...maybe it happened at smith also... I'm struggling to think of any 10+ gear routes that i know of that are as hard as the 11+ smith routes (although i do know of some 11+/12- gear routes there that are stout)...maybe some specifics here will help me??? I'm getting old to so my memory is fading as well... Nope. You've got your Pope stories mixed up. It was at Smith. I just looked it up: Ring of Fire. Guide book says 11d. I remember it has a diagonal hand crack where you can milk a rest just before the anchors. Bowline on a coil, sloppy Boreals with knee sox, bimbo belayer. That climb is easier than any 5.10 on Jello Tower, for example. Other examples of 5.10 climbs harder than Ring of Fire...you don't have to look far, but even a soft place like Squamish has 5.10 climbs that are harder, such as that 10d right of Crime of the Century, or the pitch above the Split Pillar. Sorry I can't remember their names. I even think Slow Children is harder than Ring of Fire. Solid Gold (Yosemite), EBGB's (Joshua Tree), Skinny Puppy (Devil's Tower)....all 5.10 climbs harder than the 5.11 sport climbs I've sampled at Smith, City of Rocks and North Bend. And what's with Vomit Launch? Compare that to Yorkshire Gripper, Coarse and Buggy, Hot Rocks? Name one 12a sport climb as hard as Baby Apes (which I couldn't even get on TR). I've also climbed Aborigine, but I don't have much of a story to tell about it, except to say there's not a move of 5.11 on it anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 pope....i think you suck at cracks! that 10d to the right of crim of the century or the sword are harder than the boulder problem on ring of fire?? OMFG! You suck at cracks....hahahahaha....you missed your calling as a sporto.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Joseph, old school = sandbag, oneupsmanship has always been around, and locals have always delighted in seeing visitors flail at a grade they didn't expect to. The "Joshua Tree 5.9" was a classic example... I don't think 'old school = sandbag' at all. There are old school places where a lot of sandbagging goes on, but I don't feel that way about Beacon. The grades there are pretty self-consistent. Does that mean there are no sandbag lines out there? No. Does that mean there are no routes out there put up before there were .11s or .12s and no one had the gumption to re-rate them appropriately? No. But by and large I don't see much deliberate sandbagging out there - just solid standards. Jill's .10a? Not to my mind, solid .9. YW's is basically a long 5.7 with just a couple of .8 and .9 moves on it. I know Vern felt both FFS and Stone Rodeo should be up-bumped a letter notch and I agree with those. But I think if you take BSS at .10c as the gold standard by which other routes are measured out there, then Blownout is definitely .10a. Not re-rating things is not the FA's fault. My partner and I put up several climbs in the mid-70s and we debated long and hard about calling our poor offerings .11+s at all because that's all there was at the time. Later crews uprated a couple to .12s and one to .13a - we didn't purposely intend to sandbag anyone, hell we were nervous about being considered presumptious for calling them what we did as it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 In fact, one year at Smith I got an 11d first try, tied in with a bowline on a coil. With a big-boobied belayer who left six feet of slack in the dirt at all times. Pope...your memory is fading...you told me about the whole 5.11+/bowline thing happening at Little Si (I still have the pm), you even told me the route name (Aborigine)... Who believes any of his BS, anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Jill's .10a? Not to my mind, solid .9. YW's is basically a long 5.7 with just a couple of .8 and .9 moves on it. I know Vern felt both FFS and Stone Rodeo should be up-bumped a letter notch and I agree with those. But I think if you take BSS at .10c as the gold standard by which other routes are measured out there, then Blownout is definitely .10a. The last 20 of Jills thrill on the second pitch (depending on how you define a pitch, you know where I am talking about) is every bit 10.a…..and I have it wired and still think its 10.a. My buddy Brad onsighted free for some a while back, both pitches in one. He rated it 11.c/d to onsight in one pitch. He thought the bottom part was more like 11.b and the upper pitch was more like 11.a. I have to agree with him. YW on the other hand I do agree with you for the most part. I do think that climbing over the shinny bolt on the forth pitch is a 10.a move. That move stumps a lot of good climbers. They get it…..but there is a lot of hesitation. It all depends on how you are feeling that day. The day I red pointed pipeline it felt like 10.a. I cruised it……I have since gone back and top roped it and wondered how the hell did I lead this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 In fact, one year at Smith I got an 11d first try, tied in with a bowline on a coil. With a big-boobied belayer who left six feet of slack in the dirt at all times. Pope...your memory is fading...you told me about the whole 5.11+/bowline thing happening at Little Si (I still have the pm), you even told me the route name (Aborigine)... Who believes any of his BS, anyway? what was that Bruce Springsteen song about the days of yore? Glory Days, all i think about are Glory Daze.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 In fact, one year at Smith I got an 11d first try, tied in with a bowline on a coil. With a big-boobied belayer who left six feet of slack in the dirt at all times. Pope...your memory is fading...you told me about the whole 5.11+/bowline thing happening at Little Si (I still have the pm), you even told me the route name (Aborigine)... Who believes any of his BS, anyway? "DeChristo": If you're referring to "pope", you need to sit down, little man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 You've got your Pope stories mixed up. It was at Smith. I just looked it up: Ring of Fire. Guide book says 11d. I remember it has a diagonal hand crack where you can milk a rest just before the anchors. Bowline on a coil, sloppy Boreals with knee sox, bimbo belayer. That climb is easier than any 5.10 on Jello Tower, for example. Other examples of 5.10 climbs harder than Ring of Fire...you don't have to look far, but even a soft place like Squamish has 5.10 climbs that are harder, such as that 10d right of Crime of the Century, or the pitch above the Split Pillar. Sorry I can't remember their names. I even think Slow Children is harder than Ring of Fire. Solid Gold (Yosemite), EBGB's (Joshua Tree), Skinny Puppy (Devil's Tower)....all 5.10 climbs harder than the 5.11 sport climbs I've sampled at Smith, City of Rocks and North Bend. And what's with Vomit Launch? Compare that to Yorkshire Gripper, Coarse and Buggy, Hot Rocks? Name one 12a sport climb as hard as Baby Apes (which I couldn't even get on TR). I've also climbed Aborigine, but I don't have much of a story to tell about it, except to say there's not a move of 5.11 on it anywhere. i think your above list simply indicates you are a sport climbing prodigy, whilst sucking at trad. i've climbed all the routes listed above sans yose and devil's tower, and that's the only explanation i have. maybe you can teach dwanus to get up that 5.13 he keeps mumbling about? should be easy, with your combined talents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.