powderhound Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 And to the fool that thinks a cam rated to 12kn is OK if it breaks at 5kn: are you fucking retarded????? It should break at 24kn or even 48kn if it's rated to 12kn. That's called a "Factor of Safety". If you're OK with an FoS on a piece of safety equipment of less than .5, you're a blithering idiot. well no more than any of the other fools traditional climbing and protecting with small gear. I have whipped on the #3 BD microstopper rated @ 5kn or 1124lbs, also the #3 & 4 wild country zero's rated 6kn. While I am not condoning CCH, I am just stating that 5kn is a good bit of force and doubt that many of your average falls generate that much force, and that the most rock will break before the gear does. I appreciate your concern for my idiotcy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 The difference is that a BD microstopper is rated at 5kN, not 12kN...ie, you'd probably do something like put a screamer on it, or double it up, etc. recognizing that is "only rated at 5kN", whereas, if you had a nice camming unit rated at 12kN buried in clean granite, you wouldn't even think twice about it (when you should, if its a cch piece-of-shit with a "real" rating of 5kN)... While i generally think choad is a choad, i think he's spot on about your comment...you can generate 1000lbs pretty easily in some cases.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderhound Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 ...you can generate 1000lbs pretty easily in some cases.... MOG X2 with a factor two.....yep that happens all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aric Datesman Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 The top one clearly looks like it has a good braze and the middle one clearly has a terrible braze. You can tell by the fillet of brazing material outside of the sleeve. The bottom one is a little fuzzier and I can't recall what it pulled to. The braze isn't as good as the top one but better than the middle as there is some brazing material outside of the sleeve but the fillet isn't as nice as it should be. The axle bending issue is an entirely different beast. Hey Hafilax, For the benefit of those who don't want to deal with RC, those heads are, from top to bottom: 1. The Purple, failed at ~10.5kN by way of axle deformation 2. The Red, failed ~4.5kN by way of the stem pulling from the head 3. The Red I pulled a while back, failed @ 11.3kN by way of the stem snapping at the base of the head. FWIW the braze on the 4.5kN Red wasn't as clearly underfilled until I spent a couple minutes with it and a brass brush this morning. When I first got the cam it looked ok aside from the broken trigger wire, tweaked head and 3 severed cable strands. There was so much grot that the fillet looked full. Frankly I was surprised how it cleaned up. -aric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric8 Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 BTW, eldiente, you are so lame. Oddly enough the people doing the most complaining don't actually use Aliens or have stopped using them.If you don't like them, don't use them. My offer still stands, send them my way. Clearly only idiots and morons use Aliens. Look at this asshole here. He's a long along way out above a Black Alien pulling the crux on a 5.14 pitch. Someone needs to let this guy know how unsafe that Alien is. [img:left]http://www.alpinist.com/media/ALP20/trotter_path.jpg[/img] The argument that because someone else does something makes it okay has never been valid. It becomes even more suspect when they are paid money to do it. I use some older aliens that had already held many falls before CCH started having problems. I'm sure you could buy new aliens and take them out climbing and be fine. But statistically speaking you would be much better off with one of the other brands... might was well stack the odds in your favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 The whole "OMG these aliens are scary and I'm getting rid of mine" thing is a little bit like dude complaining that the chick he picked up turns out to be a tranny. If you were a bit more discerning in the first place you wouldn't have a bunch of junk cams you suddenly want to get rid of! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korup Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 (edited) Here's a story. I broke a new #2 Stopper aid climbing. I emailed BD, they had me send the piece and a full explanation of the scenario. BD engineers pulled spec sheets on that batch, and double checked everything about it. They then went into their archive, got multiple ones from the same exact batch, and pull tested all of those to failure, sending me all the reports. Lastly, they pull tested pieces from many batches attempting to reproduce my failure mode, sending reports from all that testing. THAT IS A PROPER RESPONSE. I am shocked that so many people are defending CCH. These pull tests have not been rigorously controlled, but for hell, they don't need to be. Many different failure modes on many batches, all due to poor workmanship and QC. It isn't just your ass, it could be others hit by your carcass, or climbers involved in a tricky rescue after you take a dirt nap off a POS cam. Edited May 21, 2009 by korup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 And what if one of these broken alien pieces beams a falcon egg? This is the cornerstone argument in my forthcoming dissertation for Bachelor of the Arts in Zoology (minor in chemistry). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 I'm no metalurgist, but I bet falcon eggs are tasty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 ...you can generate 1000lbs pretty easily in some cases.... MOG X2 with a factor two.....yep that happens all the time. i didn't say "all the time"...i said easily...difference... ever fall straight onto a belay? That'd generate it...and i bet falls at the first piece are getting close to a 1000lbs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Someone needs to let this guy know how unsafe that Alien is. Climbing on untested Aliens and proclaiming they're still great and safe is a lot like coming home from Iraq and claiming the highway between the Baghdad Airport and the Green Zone is 'safe' and that there are no more IED's because, what the hell, you personally made the trip 73 times and didn't get blown up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemp22 Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 So now, apparently Nadia Waggoner, CCH's Office/Production manager, is allegedly posting on the RC.com thread (and also on summitpost, and probably other sites) under an anonymous username, and accusing Mr. Datesman of being paid by a startup company or competitor rig his tests to look bad for CCH. This is kind of like a fatal car accident on the side of the road - I know it's wrong, and that I should just move along and go about my business, but it's so hard not to stop and gawk. I hope they unban her so she can post more. I need some popcorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tradhead Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) I love my Aliens but will never buy anything from CCH after the stunt they pulled this week! Edited May 22, 2009 by tradhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aric Datesman Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Sorry guys, I screwed up. There was a miscommunication regarding the IP information I got which lead to me accusing RC user "Sogdiana" as being Nadia@CCH. I've posted retractions and am going around cleaning this up wherever I can. For the record the accusations about me being a paid flunky came from "Sogdiana", who claims to have no affiliation with CCH. Her IP info on RC resolves to a proxy server on the same provider as Nadia@CCH, but because of the proxy I don't have his/her actual IP address. Sogdiana's writing style and odd choice of words is strikingly similar to Nadia's (Sogdiana said English is not her native language and Nadia sounded Russian to me when I spoke with her), but I do not have absolute proof that they are one in the same. -aric. BTW, Sogdiana has been unbanned. Edited May 22, 2009 by Aric Datesman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 Hi Aric, Thanks for posting here... CCH just strikes me as the most amatuerish business i've ever seen...garage tinkerers... great design, but at the end of the day, still homemade... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korup Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Huh. A female climber. Fairly rare. A female climber who is really, really into Aliens. Pretty damn rare. A female climber who is really, really into Aliens, creates a new profile just to defend Aliens (using unusual grammar and syntax), and just happens to have the same service provider as a *highly vested* employee at the company that just happens to manufacture said garbage product? I'd be calling the attorney general's office, the BBB, and the US Consumer Product Commission. We've just entered the realm of extreme illegality, kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 When you have manufacturing problems, often it comes down to the design. Since the braze is the most consistent problem here, seems like the solution would be to put in that weep hole (previously mentioned) so you can verify that the joint is filled with metal. Your braze could still be brittle, but at least you've filled your joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aric Datesman Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Word I have from one of their big customers (read: gear shop), who called CCH after talking with me is that they don't do the weep hole because it weakens the head when placed in a horizontal. Don't know how they tried it but it seems to me that running the cable hole straight through to the axle hole wouldn't have this problem. Sure, you might have to ream the axle hole again but you're ensured a good joint. @Korup- If I knew for certain it was Nadia I'd be all over that. The evidence is damning, but until this settles out a bit I'm not sticking my neck out any further. Its ugly enough as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 When you have manufacturing problems, often it comes down to the design. Since the braze is the most consistent problem here, seems like the solution would be to put in that weep hole (previously mentioned) so you can verify that the joint is filled with metal. Your braze could still be brittle, but at least you've filled your joint. What is my best cam product out there to replace my green and yellow aliens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underworld Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 The difference is that a BD microstopper is rated at 5kN, not 12kN...ie, you'd probably do something like put a screamer on it, or double it up, etc. recognizing that is "only rated at 5kN", whereas, if you had a nice camming unit rated at 12kN buried in clean granite, you wouldn't even think twice about it (when you should, if its a cch piece-of-shit with a "real" rating of 5kN)... would aliens be still called POS's if they had a 5kn rating stamped on them insted of the 12kn? i don't intend that as an attack or argument - just a question. while i agree that the cams should be as strong as they advertise ... aliens are useful tools in climbing IMHO. they will stick (and stay) where many other cams would pop right out. so in those situations, the aliens are MUCH more safe than some alternatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aric Datesman Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 The difference is that a BD microstopper is rated at 5kN, not 12kN...ie, you'd probably do something like put a screamer on it, or double it up, etc. recognizing that is "only rated at 5kN", whereas, if you had a nice camming unit rated at 12kN buried in clean granite, you wouldn't even think twice about it (when you should, if its a cch piece-of-shit with a "real" rating of 5kN)... would aliens be still called POS's if they had a 5kn rating stamped on them insted of the 12kn? i don't intend that as an attack or argument - just a question. while i agree that the cams should be as strong as they advertise ... aliens are useful tools in climbing IMHO. they will stick (and stay) where many other cams would pop right out. so in those situations, the aliens are MUCH more safe than some alternatives. And a reasonable question at that. Had that red been rated at what it broke at (~4.5kN or so) I wouldn't have termed it a failure and none of this would have happened. The braze would have scared the hell out of me had I bothered to cut it open, but I can't say if I would have bothered or not since it met spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 while i agree that the cams should be as strong as they advertise ... aliens are useful tools in climbing IMHO. they will stick (and stay) where many other cams would pop right out. so in those situations, the aliens are MUCH more safe than some alternatives. I'm a little aghast with the arguments being made regarding aliens, and the defenses being posited. Christ, we are presumably talking about people's lives being put in danger by a company producing defective products, and that company's unwillingness to provide accountability and a proper remedy. The above is another example of the ridiculous comments being offered in CCH's defense: If the brazing process is flawed, one will never know what the actual failure rating will be with any particular piece, which again makes any claim about their safety a statement about the utter ignorance of the claimant. Hopefully it will not take a death (and the following lawsuit) before this circus act comes to an end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 and in response to the above concerning a lower kN rating: if they had a lower rating, but an obviously flawed brazing process which accounted for this lower rating, it would be just as unacceptable as the current fiasco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choada_Boy Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 I concur. At times this conversation has looked like a "Who Can Say The Stupidest Shit" contest. This picture says it all, End of Discussion. If you have a contrary opinion you are a fucking moron. If you'd like to know why, refer to the picture and compare what you see to your worthless ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korup Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Ding! Ding! Ding! And we have a winner. Thanks Choada Boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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