Dane Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 We have come so far in the "light is right" scheme over the last 30 years. Much of it is awesome and helpful in the mountains. Some of it I think has gone too far. The good stuff? super light weight stretchy clothing slw ice tools slw light caribiners slw crampons Not so good? skinny, super light weight, super stretchy ropes slw boots that wear out in a season slw light packs that don't last but one climb Unless you are a professional climber who gets new gear after every climb and free boots every year I think it is a bad idea. I love lwt ropes but if they make a fall in the alpine longer maybe they aren't the best idea. Discuss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WageSlave Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I'm new at this game but wondering how stretchy ropes that lower impact forces on your pro are bad news. I can see how hitting a ledge would negate that argument pretty quick, but what else is the downside of them? How much longer of a fall are we talking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 It would seem like alpine falls would generate less fall factor (or impact force) due to the fact that one would probably tumble down. So it would seem like there would be less rope stretch regardless of diameter, maybe hardly any. Now the skinny ropes cutting over sharp alpine edges are a different matter. All in all, I would think the modern skinny ropes are not a bad thing. Agree with all LW gear that doesn't last long. I haven't bought anything new in a while so I must have the good heavy stuff. (as far as boots and packs) WHat packs and boots have you seen wear out so soon? (that way we can avoid them! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 Skinny ropes? Saw two falls this winter that ended up being much longer than they should have been because of rope stretch on 7.8 twins and 8.2 dbls. Falls? DBL what you'd get from a decent single 10.5 mm. Boots? Pick any of the fabric stuff. Although the sticky rubber is a big advantage. Fit generally isn't Packs? Even the dyneema reinforced rip stop, rips. Full dyneema is stupid expensive, 3 to 4 times the same pack in any other material including dyneema reinforced ripstop. It isn't the pack body that wears out anyway on even the lwt ballistics cloth packs but over time the shoulder straps. So much sales hype. IMO if you are paying over $250 for a full sized pack it is a rip off. For a pack that is actually useful for climbing more like $150 or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I would say that the super light fabric/synthetic alpine boots have actually lived up to their hype. Everyone knows the immense benefit of significantly lighter footwear when it comes to covering lots of ground, and I have had good experience with durability with my Scarpa Charmoz pair. Two years of hard use, going into their third year and they still don't need a resole, the GTX still works, and the fabric is holding strong. And they've seen plenty of brush, water, mud, ice, granite, talus, and scree. If I notice the fabric fuzzing out after a trip, or a slash in the rand, etc. I just apply a bit of Seam Grip to prevent failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 As for packs, my feeling is simplicity matters more than lightweight materials, ie. a pack with the bare minimum features (but still all that's necessary) and minimal seams, built with middle-of-the-road fabrics in terms of weight and durability, will still be an acceptably light pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 what is the difference in stretch between double and single lines? according to petzl website the 8.2 has a 34% elongation and the 10.3 has a 33.7%elongation. beal - 10.2 with 35% and a 8.1 with a 37% I don't feel like doing all the makers but with these two, the elongation reported is nearly identical for the single and half ropes. Dane, what did the two falls you saw look like as far as elongation goes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 Manufacture info isn't what you'll see in the field especially on 1/2 ropes clipped alternatively through different pieces of gear. What I saw was way more than you'd normally expect, each caused minor injuries, that imo, wouldn't have happened on a decent single rope. Don't get me wrong I love my Beal ice line twins or climbing on decent lwt dbls just didn't realise one of the trade offs till this winter. Older 9mm dbls (I still have a couple of decent ones) didn't have that kind of elongation. The 33% elongation numbers are needed with the non dynamic belays of the current generation of ATCs but I don't think it makes us any safer other than on paper. Gene, not that scientific but try top ropeing something with a single, skinny, half rope and see what you think of the stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Under 5 days, GoLite Breeze 11oz. rated at 20 lbs but will do 40 with a little shoulder conditioning. on sale $40. (added a waist strap) over 5 days, GoLite Gust 1 lbs 6 oz. $80 Yes these will tear if abused but generally hold up and get repaired with the sewing machine if there's tears. Never any catastrophic tears, just little holes now and then. Sportiva Trango S, lightest of it's grade, the 1st gen did abrade easily but as already stated in the thread, shoe-goo or seam sealer repaired. will climb 5.10 edging. don't know about falling on skinny ropes other than some top roping action. Don't climb to fall in the alpine. Do go for the edge protection ropes regardless of size, but especially with the skinnies, you need edge rating for them. the only compromise of the new lite gear I see is more frequent repairs, but for an easier approach/climb and potentially more days food weight it's a good trade off. Have done a couple big climbs alpine style carrying everything up and over that wouldn't have been possible or as fun with older heavier gear. some exceptions are alum cramps and toy axes, don't like these on big mountains if you think there's possible ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I was just out toproping with a full sized Beal 11mm rope and a junk pack. It was a 30 foot walk from the car though in an urban area (steal the pack - Please!), the weight meant nothing. That doesn't mean I don't love the fact that short life, very uber light helium weight products are available if I want them! Love em all. Sure, my Beal Joker 9.1 won't last 3 years, and the 11mil above will easily last 5 but most likely 10 years. I'm happy both are available to me. Have to pick and chose for the application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 The real life test sounds good but only if I can find a 200 lb test dummy from the local monroe gene pool. Sounds like a ground fall potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotly Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) WHat packs and boots have you seen wear out so soon? (that way we can avoid them! ) Granted, I use this strictly for backpacking/hiking but since you asked....As far as a light pack that I've had problems with, the Montbell Versalite 50. I took one through the Enchantments last year and had a few issues. When I packed the lid compartment only barely too tightly, the seam ripped out way too easily and took a quick stitch job to put back together. Then at Colchuck Lake, the plastic corner of a freeze dried meal cut a largish slice in the fabric. Then just before heading up the pass, the buckle snapped off as I tightened the belt. That said, it also happens to be the most comfortable pack I've used. I've since learned how to treat it more gently, pack it correctly and to carry a sil-nylon repair kit. For $130 and weighing only 2.5 pounds, if I get a few more years out of it, I'll consider it worth it. I'll use my heavier Gregory for climbing but this is ok for backbacking. Edited May 1, 2009 by spotly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Piston Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 It seems to me you always have to balance weight and safety. If you know your route beforehand, you can better assess what to bring. I have done alpine rock climbs in heavy leather boots and much prefer the better sensitivity and rubber of modern synthetic boots. I've done 5.8 stuff in my Trangos that I would have brought rock shoes for if I was in my old heavy leather boots=more weight for 2 pairs of footwear. If I know the grade is harder and falls more likely I'll take a burlier rope...otherwise I feel the lighter rope is more than adequate where a fall is unlikely. I've held falls on skinny rope (Beal Stinger III) and saved at least one partner. As I've gotten older, the savings in weight makes for a more enjoyable and faster climbs. Moving faster and saving energy often adds to safety in the alpine environment. I've not noticed that much loss of durability in equipment except in boots...but I can live with replacing soles or boots every few years as the price for a more enjoyable trip, almost no breakin time, no blisters, and better climbing performance. If I need warmth, stiffness, and toughness I bring the leather or plastic boots. To me it always comes down to matching the gear to the route and safety margin. But if I can keep the wear and tear on the body down and still be safe, that's a no brainer(which I am often suspected of being). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 thought: Most gear, especially packs and clothing, gets replaced well before it wears out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 It isn't the pack body that wears out anyway on even the lwt ballistics cloth packs but over time the shoulder straps. So much sales hype. IMO if you are paying over $250 for a full sized pack it is a rip off. For a pack that is actually useful for climbing more like $150 or less. I'm curious which (durable) alpine backpacks sell for less than $150. In my opinion Cilogear has some of the best packs around for mountain climbing (Especially now that they're made in Portland) and they also have some of the lowest prices compared with BD, Arcteryx, etc. I know they had occasional stitching/contruction issues in the past, but seem to always stand behind their backpacks. I've put my new-fangled lightweight Cilogear bags through a lot of days of climbing, with no meaningfull damage or deterioration. Sol Wertkin and I hauled a fully over-stuffed 45L Cilogear bag for many pitches up a new alpine route last summer, and it came out looking no worse for wear, even though the rock was very coarse and backpacks defnitely aren't designed to be hauled like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Going with Blake on Cilogear 110%. Sure, you can buy a Chinese made pack cheaper, but not better. I was thinking of using a standard 60L Cilogear pack for rockclimbing/new routing and Graham talked me out of that (bad) idea. "You don't want to be hauling a lightweight pack over rocks" he said, or something like that. Wise man. He did take it to heart and is soon to be coming out with a kick assed strong (but not overly heavy) backpack based on Yosemite climber Ray Olsen's much ballyhooed and loved discontinued Big Wally design that gregory produced when he was there. (Ray designed the first Chouinard climbing pack when he worked there). I learned about this pack from Joseph who found one used and was crowing on it. I later found a used one and understood why he was so enthusiasic. I got to try and trash the demo prototype pack Graham made last summer, and then Graham donated it to the Kevin Rauch fundraiser still looking great. Kyle was bidding on it so I didn't want to step on his toes but then he got snipped at the end. How many Chinese pack makers have ever donated packs to raise money for disabled local climbers? Here it is above getting ready for one of those solo climbing/ getting in some shooting trips. You can tuck the straps and make it a haul bag in less than a minute. The last day I had it, I hauled 4 full (2 inside and 2 on top) sized climbing ropes and all my gear out of a relatively isolated canyon. This involved some rappelling over real sharp rock and pulling my ropes (one which core-shotted from 2 people rappeling on it) so they wouldn't be wintered in. This back looked close to new when I cleaned off the dirt and turned it over to the next pack tester. It performed amazingly. Glad Graham talked me out of one of his lightweight race packs cause I'd have trashed it for sure. I'm first in line for the production model of this pack and I'm damn jazzed up about it. Cilogear rules. Anyhow, like some of you are saying, if I'd used my 9.1 Beal Joker to toprope with my buddies doing laps like last night (bad idea) and lead I doubt I could use it for a full year before it was trashed. I love the rope for those long routes where light is right though so my tired and old ass can shave some weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Those Cilogear packs sound pretty good and maybe it is time for me to investigate but I wonder: does a pound or two of sack weight really make it or break it for anybody? When I carry a heavy load I use my heavier pack (a McHale) that has the most comfortable straps on it I have ever carried while still being a simple and tough pack (though I'm sure it is at least a pound more than the Cilogear pack). When I'm out with a light load I don't worry about the carry so much and I often use a lighter pack that is in fact too short for optimum weight distribution but which is more compatible with a harness and helmet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I think on some long alpine routes where you are pushing your limits and barely hanging on, and a pound or 2 can be the tipping balance for a tumble....it would matter in a huge way. Otherwise, why would it. McCale packs are suppose to be pretty damn good themselves are they not Matt? Probably something each of us has to answer for ourselves due to their own attitude and usage. When I was young, I had no money and made due. Not that I liked doing that. I climbed harder then as well, however, my partner was a total gear whore with no kids and big discretionary income. Bivys were often uncomfortable in more ways than one for me as I'd be freezing looking over at buddy all warm, dry and cozy:-). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Probably even more critical (or at least equal) is the need for superlight gear when long-distance through-hiking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmace Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I have said it before the MEC alpenlite pack 55$ Canadian. Last two years I have climbed 140+ pitches of Italian dolomites. Plus what I do here in BC plus I dragged it 2000 km on my dirt bike across the Sahara in September, no problems and I had some spectacular wipe outs. [img:left]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3135/2912415777_d71f66451a.jpg[/img] I have 7.5 twins and for the amount of space it takes in my pack I will risk the extra fall in the alpine over carting around anything over 8.5 Lightweight boots I trash in no time and I have had to go back to beefy boots, but I have to have a pair for winter and summer otherwise I still trashem. Any of those mixed material boots dont last me longer than one season. I figure all those light weight boots are for places with easy approacehs like Europe, here in BC you have to go through so much terrain I just dont think anything but full leathers will last any length of time. But even beefy stuff is wearing out, I managed to wear through my BD ATC guide this winter and I have never worn out an ATC like that. How about those Petzl attaches man those wear out in less than a summer, jeez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 This from Steve House on the Patagonia web site. Makalu '09 "The wall was first attempted by two visionary climbers who, almost single-handedly, created the lightweight-expedition style that myself and a handful of others use to climb Himalayan mountains today. In the spring of 1981 Polish purist Voytek Kurtyka and the highly talented Brit Alex MacIntyre climbed to 23,000 feet on the west face. That autumn the duo returned with the preternaturally gifted high-altitude Polish climber Jerzy Kukuchka. On their incredible attempt the trio climbed to 24,200 feet before being turned back after Alex took six hours to lead a single pitch of 120 feet. One of their weight-saving measures was to bring only one climbing harness for the three of them. That harness was used by the leader and the two seconding would climb with in the old-style of having a loop of a cord tied around their waist. I bow at the alter of those hardmen." I understand going light and why. "Have done a couple big climbs alpine style carrying everything up and over that wouldn't have been possible or as fun with older heavier gear. " Fun I understand..."not possible", for the vast majority I might question that when you get to SLW gear. Falling in the alpine? If you aren't looking at the possibilty of a fall...well.....must be a easy route for you. "they had occasional stitching/contruction issues in the past" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickster Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 About every other year I have had to either buy a new name brand pack or return one due to poor construction. I took a good look at Cilo Gear packs this year and found them to be a very one size fits all pack. I bet for most people a Cilo gear pack would be fine. Rather than buy another Chinese manufactured pack or a well made one that didn't fit worth a crap I went the custom route. I picked up an all Dyneema Mchale P&G for about $800. It is 4lbs with bayonets and 3lbs stripped. I figured I had already invested well over a $1000 in packs that are long gone now... why not invest in one good pack that fits and will last for a lifetime. The fit, durability, and weight combined together are impossible to beat. Some people get lucky with manufactured packs... I am not one of those people. All of Dan's packs are built like a brick shithouse. How much you choose to spend on fabrics and custom features is up to you. I think the Dyneema is the way to go. If your gonna go big, go big. A couple funny stories here regarding packs... -I went to Jim Nelson's store when I was on one of my backpack quests. He showed me a Monte Bell 50L. It was pretty nice, I ran around the block with 50lbs in it. When I got back and sat down I said to him, "You know, I really have my heart set on a Mchale pack, what do you think of them?" He shouted, "You could buy 5 of these friggen packs for the cost of one of his!" The conversation ended but in my mind I could remember at least 3 photos of Mr. Nelson wearing a Mchale pack while climbing. -A few months ago when I picked up my pack from Dan Mchale. He told me a story about how someone sent him a pack in the mail and asked him what he thought of it. He tore it apart with his bare hands and mailed it back to them. I've considered getting a cilo gear pack and mailing it to Dan, but I am afraid that what I get returned to me in the mail will not be marketable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Fun I understand..."not possible", for the vast majority I might question that when you get to SLW gear. Falling in the alpine? If you aren't looking at the possibilty of a fall...well.....must be a easy route for you. hey, the occasional hyperbole, what can I say. I don't push like I used to on the falls, only at the crags. and the light stuff is because I'm a small person, can feel 5 more pounds pretty easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 Hey Buckeroo...nothing personal. Lot of hyperbole in this thread including some of my own SLW gear in use. Steve House with the packs before starting up the 7,500 foot SW Face of King Peak, 1998. The single rope used is in the yellow pack. 13 hrs on the face and a RT time of 36 hrs. base to base. Photo is Joe Josephson's who was House's partner for the climb. Rope? Skinny Twins will come in at 76g s meter for the pair while a 9.1 will be 53g a meter. Having used both tells me I want a decent single. Nice that it is lighter if you don't need full length rappels. Packs? I'd like to met the guy or gal who can actually climb anything with more than a 30L sac. MEC alpenlite ? I agree, nice climbing pack @ 1.5# total weight and an excellent price with Dyneema ripstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky_joe Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Dane, I might be way off base but it seems that you are criticizing the wrong aspects of the light skinny and stretchy alpine ropes. The long fall you mentioned was, as you also stated, a result of the double/half rope clipping technique. While a single rope would have eliminated the possibility of this technique, might it also have put unacceptable angles (and strain on individual pieces) in the system in the event of a fall? The double rope technique has several advantages, but as with all trade-offs carries a few disadvantages...the longer fall being perhaps the worst. Regarding weight...the single is lighter, but it also has to be carried by one partner. That's ~10lbs that could be split 5 and 5 (or less). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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