Checat Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 Yes, exactly. Thank you kevbone for being that ignorant climber who makes it really easy to make the point that we as climbers aren't showing enough consideration in the wild places where we visit. Obviously I think that an all-encompassing bolting ban is absurd, but its ignorant attitudes like yours that lead to indiscriminate and disgusting bolting practices that give rock-climbers a bad name. When they appoint me climbing czar I'm going to ban you from all climbing areas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Yes, exactly. Thank you kevbone for being that ignorant climber who makes it really easy to make the point that we as climbers aren't showing enough consideration in the wild places where we visit. Obviously I think that an all-encompassing bolting ban is absurd, but its ignorant attitudes like yours that lead to indiscriminate and disgusting bolting practices that give rock-climbers a bad name. When they appoint me climbing czar I'm going to ban you from all climbing areas Post of the day. Thats the spirit. Don’t get your panties in a bunch over a bunch of interweb talk. I don’t know you any more than you know me. I would not ever disrespect those who came before me in terms of climbing and cragging……. Carry on…… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderhound Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 luvshaker, i can't imagine anything more tedious or pointless than another bolting discussion. apparently scrubbing moss, building trails, and strangling trees with webbing are all activities deemed "natural", but putting in a nice bolt anchor that would protect the trees from abuse is somehow "capitlistic". what a load of bs... There are only a couple (two I believe) designated rap trees the rest are webbing free. Moss grows back, trails grow over, and 100+foot tall several feet wide tree are not going to be strangled by webbing. I see trees that over grow barbed wire all over the place, this is just webbing. But....bolt holes and bolts are not overgrown by the rock. ask an arborist whether wrapping slings around trees is harmless. the moss isn't going to grow back as long as people keep climbing there, nor will the trails grow over as long as people keep using them to get to the crag. the point is that human activity changes things, so if you want it to remain "natural", then you have to ban all activity and close the place to climbing. you guys are a laugh. you think you are so pure because you aren't using bolts but you are still changing the environment. the carbon footprint of manufacturing trad gear has to be greater than that of manufacturing what you need to climb a sport route (the bolts are reused by every climber who does the route whereas trad route requires everyone to have their own equipment). the "capitalistic" climbing gear industry makes a lot more money selling you a cam than it does selling you a quickdraw, yet somehow the cam is some sort of anti-capitalist thing and the quickdraw is selling out to the man. like i said, what a load of bs... What does capitalism or the "industry" and thier sales have to do with climbing tradition. Call me a youth groping and grasping to a time and when climbing was an adventure; NOT a homogenous and antiseptics effort to cater to the lowest common denominator. The quickdraw and bolt have their place...just hopefully never at the Lack. First ascents are not about creating routes for others to enjoy in safety. They are about a climber RISING to the challenge of his chosen line. - leo houlding plus the idea that having a trad rack is significantly increasing my carbon footprint is laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 (edited) No panties in bunch. Just trying to play along. If we weren't passionate about climbing, what would we have right? Your right, I don't know you from Adam, but obviously I don't hold any real ill will towards you. its just webchat after all... That being said I will still ban you from all climbing areas when Obama appoints me climbing Czar... Edited April 8, 2009 by Checat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemp22 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 So, the OP wants a zero-bolt crag so that a person can stumble upon the crag and have no trace that others have been their previously...but there are 2 trees with webbing around them on top as rap stations? If people are leaving webbing/rope around trees in between visits, that trash should be cleaned up. I said earlier that zero bolts is do-able if the topography supports it....but damaging a bunch of trees or plant life shouldn't automatically be an accepted way of achieving that. Topography that supports it may more realistically be where climbs top out to gradually lower angles with opportunities to build gear anchors and then walk off. Personally, I still think zero bolts is a good ideal to work towards, and this crag sounds remote enough it shouldn't be a problem to maintain that. But be realistic about why you're doing it, and don't make it an excuse to make other shoddy practices the norm out of laziness. Don't put yourself in position of adhering so adamantly to one ethical ideal that you end up making compromises to other ethics. And if you're going for the "untrammeled by humans" effect, then why stop at no bolts? why not no chalk, no scrubbing, no cleaning, etc? And Kevbone - just because a face climb isn't bolted doesn't mean it's a waste of rock. There were comments earlier about intentionally making some climbs top-rope only, and there's nothing wrong with that. There are some local climbs just like that, even at Ozone. In fact, I'd say the OP and other people who climb at this crag ought to hurry up and top-rope every face climb out there, and document it...so that you don't have climbers coming out there years in the future and think they're climbing a new line and therefore have the prerogative to bolt it. oh, and Bill/Joe - don't worry about the trad revival comments - he's just saying that you guys are so old that you're "Retro" now, which makes you cool again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 First ascents are not about creating routes for others to enjoy in safety. They are about a climber RISING to the challenge of his chosen line. - leo houlding I could not disagree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 No panties in bunch. Just trying to play along. If we weren't passionate about climbing, what would we have right? Your right, I don't know you from Adam, but obviously I don't hold any real ill will towards you. its just webchat after all... That being said I will still ban you from all climbing areas when Obama appoints me climbing Czar... You may be the climbing Czar....but I am the spray master. Now bow...... before you bow.....lets go climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 hemp22, your point about top-roping lines that would otherwise see bolts directly attests to why this OP even brings this kind of talking point to a website like CC.com. Because developing routes with no bolts leaves no trace of an initial ascent it leaves future visitors no clue to whether a climb has been led or not. I guess its kind of one of those "if a tree falls in a forest..." sort of dilemmas because who really cares right?... But as someone who develops routes there, I am as guilty as the next developer when it comes to taking ownership to that route, after all it was my blood, sweat and tears that led to its ascent and we as humans want whatever satisfaction from our efforts as we can get. So naturally this has led me to the development of a guidebook to the area. Along the way it occurred to me that a.) more areas like the lack should exist, and it is only through the promotion of this ethics that we can expect that concept to spread and other bolt free crags to come about and b.) the only way to really protect the area from future bolting is to establish that: yes there are routes there and, yes, they don't require bolts. Unfortunately, the OG's (original gangstas) of the place do not agree with my efforts in developing a guidebook. As far as they're concerned its protection from bolts relies on word of mouth and secrecy and what boils down to "only promoting the area to those select few deemed responsible enough to understand zero-bolt development." As much as I want to have faith in the idea that word of mouth is enough to protect the area from bolting, I don't. And based on the feedback of this web-thread: Any faith in the place remaining bolt free is completely lost. And beyond that, I don't think any climbing area should receive that sort of elitist disclosure. Its fair to say that keeping the number of users to an extremely fragile area is a noble cause, but isn't it just as noble to share with people an area that completely breaks the mold of your typical Oregon climbing crag? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 (edited) The fact that you disagree with that houlding quote confirms for me how diametrically opposed you and I are as climbers. Please never come to Moolack, don't ever get on my routes, because I wouldn't want you to understand what Grade A, high-quality, bolt-less crack-climbing is all about. Edited April 8, 2009 by Checat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 The fact that you disagree with that houlding quote confirms for me how diametrically opposed you and I are as climbers. Please never come to Moolack, don't ever get on my routes, because I wouldn't want you to understand what Grade A, high-quality, bolt-less crack-climbing is all about. Panties in a bunch? Coming from someone who has helped with the development of a crag....me.....I would say it is safe to say. Everyone climbs for a different reason. Please do not judge me for why I climb and set routes. And I will not judge you. I never said Leo was an idiot. Just that I disagree with what was written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 I just think that you fail to acknowledge that we as climbers evolve. We progress and as we progress we have a responsibility to rise to the level of the rock we aspire to climb, not sanitize down to make it as comfortable and convenient as possible. If it was up to you more and more crags would be going through the kind of "Disneyfication" that sport climbing promotes. Isn't the whole point to conquer the challenge, not make the challenge manageable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 If it was up to you more and more crags would be going through the kind of "Disneyfication" that sport climbing promotes. Jesus dude…..you are the master of speculation. Didn’t you say earlier that you don’t know me from Adam? Therefore you cannot make such a statement about “why” I set routes solely because I disagree with Leo…….. I disagree with Leo and all of a sudden I am some bad climber who is ruining your trip. Wake up brother……. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 I think it has more to do with your comment about setting out to bolt an untouched crag just to ruffle my feathers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 oh....you must not have scrolled down on that post.....it read.... just kidding. I would never disrespect those who came before me. It was a troll. Remember……spray master….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 oh, and Bill/Joe - don't worry about the trad revival comments - he's just saying that you guys are so old that you're "Retro" now, which makes you cool again I think we're just old. But thank you for the kindness jeff:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Didn’t you say earlier that you don’t know me from Adam? Here's Adam, I would never confuse the 2 of you. Link to Adam Trip report Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 chechat, i dig your experiment on cc.com and it's both provided me with some free entertainment and given me some food for thought. but never forget that this is a highly self-selected group of climbers. basically a bunch of either 1) people who work in cubicles but mainly spray on this site or 2) trustfunder types who are doing the same thing from home in between packing bowls. there are SO many climbers who never go onto this site, or others, and they likely hold very different opinions than the ones expressed here by at most 10-20 guys (no women) scattered throughout oregon and washington. so just because everyone here speaks with a megaphone doesn't make them representative of anything at all. as for kevbone, you should have gone with PMs long ago. then again, i would have missed out on some free entertainment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I just think that you fail to acknowledge that we as climbers evolve. We progress and as we progress we have a responsibility to rise to the level of the rock we aspire to climb, not sanitize down to make it as comfortable and convenient as possible. If it was up to you more and more crags would be going through the kind of "Disneyfication" that sport climbing promotes. Isn't the whole point to conquer the challenge, not make the challenge manageable? what a load of pompous bullshit. are you speaking for all climbers or is that the royal "we" you are using? you joke about being climbing czar but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 "Call me a youth groping and grasping to a time and when climbing was an adventure; NOT a homogenous and antiseptics effort to cater to the lowest common denominator." okay, you're a groping and grasping youth -- just don't grope my daughter and everything will be fine. ca 1920 or so the british climbing community decried the german invention of the carabiner because it robbed the sport of adventure. before the 'biner, the leader had to untie, thread his rope through the eye of the piton, then tie back in. i'm okay with using 'biners and i suspect you use them, too. where would you like to arbitrarily turn the clock back to in your search for adventure? my point here is that we all decide for ourselves what level of adventure interests/intrigues/draws us. you want to follow leo houlding, fine by me. i could care less what leo says. i'll make my own decision, thank you. i'm certainly okay with the idea that "the lack" is a trad area with its weird no bolt anchors ethic. to each his own, let the local community decide for itself. it would never occur to me to go into someone else's area and impose my ideas on them. i just find the pompous attitude that it is so clean and pure and shouldn't everyone aspire to this standard so much malarkey. clean and pure because it got no bolts and bolts is all bad always, evil stuff, cams good because "natural" -- so simple to be dogmatic, so much harder to actually think about the choices we make. at the smoke bluffs people used trees for rap anchors for decades, then decided after learning that they were harming the trees that bolt anchors were a better idea. pluses and minuses to either option, but at least put some thought into it. don't just quote some pothead brit. so at this adventurous crag with no bolts -- were routes cleaned on lead or on toprope? is the pro really sketchy, requiring genuine boldness, or is it bomber and you can sew it up, a cam every 3 feet in a crack that was meticulously cleaned on rappel, inspected as to what size gear was necessary prior to its "adventurous" first ascent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Zzzzzz ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 so at this adventurous crag with no bolts -- were routes cleaned on lead or on toprope? is the pro really sketchy, requiring genuine boldness, or is it bomber and you can sew it up, a cam every 3 feet in a crack that was meticulously cleaned on rappel, inspected as to what size gear was necessary prior to its "adventurous" first ascent? any and all above. Some routes have sketchy pro, both big and small(big bros down to peckers and ballnutz) some can be sewn up. Most have been cleaned (meticulously would be impossible). Some have been sized up lead, true pure onsights have occurred. Within a no-bolt ethic, personal choices about style have still been just that: personal to the developer/FAist. next question... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 I am just joking about the czar thing. kevbone's been accusing me of taking this thread too seriously. Don't go start taking everything I say so seriously... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 well, in order to become czar, you are going to have to talk to JosephH because he is the one who decides who gets to be climbing czar. next question: is this place called "the lack" because it lacks bolts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvallisclimb Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 face climbing is fun... fuck no bolts! no one cares about moolack for this reason and this elitist attitude ain't helpin your cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderhound Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 where would you like to arbitrarily turn the clock back to in your search for adventure? i'm certainly okay with the idea that "the lack" is a trad area with its weird no bolt anchors ethic. to each his own, let the local community decide for itself. it would never occur to me to go into someone else's area and impose my ideas on them. i just find the pompous attitude that it is so clean and pure and shouldn't everyone aspire to this standard so much malarkey. clean and pure because it got no bolts and bolts is all bad always, evil stuff, cams good because "natural" -- so simple to be dogmatic, so much harder to actually think about the choices we make. at the smoke bluffs people used trees for rap anchors for decades, then decided after learning that they were harming the trees that bolt anchors were a better idea. pluses and minuses to either option, but at least put some thought into it. don't just quote some pothead brit. so at this adventurous crag with no bolts -- were routes cleaned on lead or on toprope? is the pro really sketchy, requiring genuine boldness, or is it bomber and you can sew it up, a cam every 3 feet in a crack that was meticulously cleaned on rappel, inspected as to what size gear was necessary prior to its "adventurous" first ascent? is your daughter hot...I am a strapping young lad with a well paying job, if she wants an interview, pm me and I will send her the app If I could turn the clock back and looking for adventure & spirit, I would love to have been at the city of rocks prior to Yaniro & Friends (friends=hammer& chisel). The seventies at the city, oh I wish. The anchors are safe for the time being and are working. Further, I feel that rappeling is the most dangerous part of climbing, I take more than a "moment" to think about my face splattered on the ground when I unclip my daisy. I have only been to a couple areas where: onsight, ground up, no cleaning, no inspection is possible; pipestone pass, butte MT and Indian Creek, rock is just dirty. The rock is covered with moss, there is NO way you could lead a route at the Lack ground up onsight without cleaning, because if you could I would have, it is my preferred style. An aid climber might be able to if he brings the ledge, battery powered leaf blower, diesel, all sorts of cleaning tools, ect.....but I am not that climber, plus the cliff is over 100+feet so you often need to rap it to see what the upper sections look like. Personally, I don't think that "genuine boldness" has anything to do with adventure. I just prefer adventure climbing to the “junk show” that’s why I go to the farside instead of ozone, and why when I go to smith I climb routes like the Adventure of the Cowdog and Widow Maker instead of Blue light special and heresy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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