waterboy Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Best wishes for a speed recovery, Anon. And thank you for posting your experience. With much respect- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRep Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Wow, good honor "Anonymous 99". Glad you're alive. Walking out on a broken ankle really sucks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Glad it wasn't worse. Impressed you got yourself out. Hope the healing goes fast! Â And thanks for sharing your story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I'm not sure what, if anything, is learned here...other than impressive that you hiked out and it seems you got pretty lucky! Thanks for posting anon99. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I think much can be learned from this thread. Â First and formost just how ephemeral the local ice climbing conditions are. Around here routes can come in, be awesome and be gone the next day. Good example was Dragontail's NE Coulior early in Dec.'08. Two parties climb one line, every one else climbs another to finish, as the original ice line is totally gone. Not the same climb or level of difficulty. Â Trusting a trip report for current conditions, no matter how recent, isn't the best idea. You never really know till you're there and swinging on the stuff. Take a moment or two a look around and get a feel for things. Â I have a bad habit of dressing for the conditions I want, not how they actually might be. Easy to spend a miserable day out doing that. Worse yet it leaves you little leeway if something goes wrong. Make sure you don't do the same on route conditions. Easy to say..."can't be that bad, it just got done yesterday" and then be wrong. It was 36F at my house on Tiger mtn when we left for the climb. It was almost 60F by mid morning here day of the accident. Â Then we have the local rock at the pass. Which I like btw. Jen's comments below that I think was a pretty astute observation. Â "the metamorphic andesite at Alpental provides very little adhesion for thin ice climbing in comparison to limestone, granite, gneiss, or sandstone. In fact of every type of rock I've climbed, the thin ice at the pass, just doesn't seem to stick to the rock as well as others. (I'd suspect that the ice delaminating caused both tools to blow*) I've seen big sheets delaminate up at the pass." Â *The cause of the fall at that point was pure speculation before the details were posted. Â I agree some what, but I think it is more condition, condition, condition. Having spent years climbing in colder environments I think a lot of things get done in WA (in marginal/warm conditions) that wouldn't get done elsewhere. Done it myself the last two years. Pissing about it the entire time because I really do know better. I have also heard of pretty some serious falls that wouldn't be tolerated by a majority of my past partners. Thankfully there haven't been more serious accidents and injuries. But we have had one fatality this year from just that...too warm to be on the ice and a death from ice fall. Â This bit of ice on PineApple Express was some pretty good climbing...and only a few inches thick. But add a little water under it or sunshine on it and it wouldn't have stayed adhered to the rock. It was in the high 20's and we had snow and clouds all day. Lucky us. Â Â I believe for the most part you make your own luck. But living through a 300' fall in the alpine is just dumb luck, no matter how much experience you have. Being able to walk out on a badly broken ankle (having done it myself) is admirable but may have caused even more serious injuries. (it did on mine) Â Everything is a decision in life. Do the best with what you have and be prepared to live with the aftermath. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 "Everything is a decision in life. Do the best with what you have and be prepared to life with the aftermath." Â wise advice, dane. and thanks for your sensible and considerate analysis of this event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 'What is above knows what is below, but what is below does not know what is above.' Obviously, you've never lived in a basement apartment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 you're joking, right? Â You ever taken a winger like that and walked, crawled or hobbled away? No, I am not joking. Anyone can fall off....getting out by yourself after something like that is admirable. Few have the stones required to pull it off. Â Agreed self-rescue is admirable, and I'm certainly glad that anon made it out ok. Â But you were awarding "some serious style points for distance on the fall." Is falling a long way and getting hurt really good style in your book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 you're joking, right? Â You ever taken a winger like that and walked, crawled or hobbled away? No, I am not joking. Anyone can fall off....getting out by yourself after something like that is admirable. Few have the stones required to pull it off. Â Dane, Â I admire those guys for crawling out. Â You're self rightious attitude though I have some first hand experience on the subject from long ago. Yes it is a very tough thing to do, but you don't get any kind of reward for doing that. Trust me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 i haven't read all his posts, but i haven't detected an attitude with Dane...but he has given the only analysis lessons learned from the accident, which i would hope most would be here to share or read (rather than rubberneck and gawk). Â of course the crawling out on your own part makes a great story (just look at "Touching the Void"), but the only thing you take from that is if you're out there alone and injured that you should never give up hope or effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Self rightious? Now that is funny.  Guess you missed:  "anyone can fall off"  "living through a 300' fall in the alpine is just dumb luck, no matter how much experience you have. Being able to walk out on a badly broken ankle (having done it myself) is admirable but may have caused even more serious injuries. (it did on mine)"  or  http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/807945/1  I actually do think you get a "reward" for coming up with the mental toughness Anon showed. YMMV  Self rightious: rightious, moral, in one's own opinion  rightious: acting in a just, upright manner, virtuous  I suspect Ano is cringing with every post and wishes this thread would just go away. It is my opinion and from his comments I do think Anon made the right choice.  But since Feck has brought up morals lets discusss it further.  When I started climbing if you got in trouble you pretty much knew no one was going to get you out, but you, your partner or your friends. Short of the Candian Rockies or Yosemite there are few SAR teams capable of getting into, let alone up a few pitches on Snoqualmie's NW face. Having played that game getting someone out that isn't mobil is another story altogether. If some one knows something different please feel free to correct me here. Others may see climbing and rescues as different today. I don't obviously.  Even now most of us know or have heard of the locals who climb stuff like this. Climbers...at least "real" climbers imo, take care of their own when things go bad. You take respnsibility for yourself and everyone around you also takes responsibility for what is required of them.  Anon obviously refused help past a extra ski pole from 5 other climbers in there on getting out. On the way out it took them 4hrs from the base of the face to the parking lot...just about how long it took me to walk in the other day.  Having some idea of the mobility and response times for a rescue to be organized, obviously they made the best decision. Was it the best decision for Anon's ankles and injuries? Only time will tell.  But you were awarding "some serious style points for distance on the fall." Is falling a long way and getting hurt really good style in your book?  And ya, I still give style points. Ano wins by a mile...well not a mile having held a 150" fall before. That resulted in only minor injuries but we were able to keep climbing for another 24 hrs.  "It's all in fun until someone looses an eye, then it becomes a party"   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Sorry dude, instant long winded discussion and analysis a couple days after an event like that is just plain wrong. Especially if it's second hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Might well be my background. Detailed (or long winded as you describe it) debriefs are part of my world. Generally taking as much or more time on the debrief as to accomplish the task. The idea behind them is to avoid similar mistakes and offer better ways of dealing with similar situations in the future. Â I learned a few things worth while for my own climbing from this incident and thinking through it. Having been on the mtn just a few days previous to the accident I don't consider my previous observations of the conditions 2nd hand. YMMV of course. Â Â Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Since this seems to have turned in to a discussion on the merits of walking out with SAR help, I'll throw in another uninformed armchair commentary. As you said Dane, life is a series of choices. Whether or not to resuce yourself or rely on others is just another decision to be made, likely with pros and cons on either side. I don't believe there is necessarily anything more righteous, burly, admirable or "stylish" about getting out of a situation alone as opposed to with a partner, bystanders or official SAR - it totally depends on the situation. Relying on others or asking for help from your fellow man (or woman!) is no sign of weakness, it's an essence of humanity. The victim of this fall made the decision he felt best making in his situation. Most of all, I'm really happy to hear these long fall resulted in relatively minor injuries. Â Oh, but to disregard everything I just said, I will judge the people Layton mentioned...sounds like your typical Utah/Colorado pussies. I wonder if they enjoyed a nice 3.2% 'mormon special' beer while they waited. I hope they stay out of the Cascades, they are not worthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Kevbone = first hand reporting of watching 20 foot fall Dane = second hand reporting of watching 300 foot fall. Who's gonna step up to the plate and give us a third hand tale of a 1000' plus fall their friend's buddy once witnessed?  True story  Eric told me that Dan watched Quinn fall 1000' down Monte Cristo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Kevbone = first hand reporting of watching 20 foot fall Dane = second hand reporting of watching 300 foot fall. Who's gonna step up to the plate and give us a third hand tale of a 1000' plus fall their friend's buddy once witnessed?  True story  Eric told me that Dan watched Quinn fall 1000' down Monte Cristo. Hey, I read that on cc.com! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Thank you, Dan/Dane. I appreciate your comments considering I am the person who fell and, in a very humble manner, limped out of there. I have always felt, as a climber, that if you get yourself into a situation you need to have the willpower and the abilities to get yourself out rather than endanger the lives of others who may come to aid. The fall was around 9:00am on Saturday and my partner and I were back at the car around 1:00pm. I have a broken left ankle along with spraining every tendon/ligament in that area. My right ankle suffered some damage as well.  Another word of encouragement for a damned good job getting yourself out. Glad you can still climb in the future after taking that fall! Amazing read! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Layton gets style points for his 2 broken ankles, crawl out through the cactus, in red rocks while rope soloing. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 And ya, I still give style points. Ano wins by a mile...well not a mile having held a 150" fall before. That resulted in only minor injuries but we were able to keep climbing for another 24 hrs. Â "It's all in fun until someone looses an eye, then it becomes a party" Â Â Okay, so if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that a 300-foot fall resulting in retreating with a broken ankle "wins" for style over a 150-foot fall with only minor injuries when you can continue climbing. So the longer the fall and the more fucked up you are as a result, the better the style? Â You're certainly welcome to hold whatever opinion you wish, but I think I'll stick with the idea that climbing your route clean, topping out, and going home uninjured is the best possible style, not the reverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choada_Boy Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Layton gets style points for his 2 broken ankles, crawl out through the cactus, in red rocks while rope soloing.  He only broke both feet, not his ankles, so no points possible.  Gene gets negative style points for needing his wife to help him piss properly after falling at Index. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choada_Boy Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 BTW: Any style points possible for not walking on a broken ankle as not to do any further damage or do Hardman Best Practices dictate that I refuse SAR assistance and perhaps permanently ruin myself by walking on a broken ankle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike1 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Anon99, We all like to think we have the metal to get out of a mess like that under our own steam, but you never know until you're faced with it... Anyways, I’m glad you guys made it out and thanks for sharing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 So the longer the fall and the more fucked up you are as a result, the better the style?  Let me be more succinct. I'd rather climb with Ano any day, than climb with a cry baby that has no sense of humor. Living is always good and the priority but enjoying life is right up there as well. Having recently taken a fall that could have easiy killed me, and the resulting 9 months of rehab, I find it easy to make all kinds of funny, to me, comments. Guy takes a 300+ foot screamer that really should have killed him, on a line I just did, and I will celebrate his life by giving some well deserved style points! Call it gallows humor. Or "fuck off", I don't care.  I think I'll stick with the idea that climbing your route clean, topping out, and going home uninjured is the best possible style  No arguement here, just doesn't always work out that way. Given the choice, I'll take a partner with a little sand...even if it is in his shattered ankles.  Email is tough but this is getting boring.  Ano any words for us in retrospect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_leclerc Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Can style points be awarded for taking an upside down whipper, cutting a leg open and decking then getting up and finishing the lead? Just asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Telling me to fuck off because I questioned your definition of style doesn't really strike me as an incredible sense of humour, but whatever you want, dude. Glad you came through your rehab and are obviously climbing strong again. Â Â Fucking off now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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