pink_chalk Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Yikes. Kev, do you remember if that draw was pre-placed? Of course not Mr Pink, only PUSSIES pre-place draws....wait...wuz zat yeller thing up dere? ......hmmmm.... Shirley knot..say it ain't so!??!!!!!!!!! take care dudes:-) umm, sorry to spoil yer fun but wrong "pink" dumb ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink_chalk Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Kev, do you remember if that draw was pre-placed? you mean like the bolt? No, the draw, Kevin. I think they were already there before I attempted the climb? Wasn't this route 5.12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Kev, do you remember if that draw was pre-placed? you mean like the bolt? POTD How anybody can claim a "red-point" on a bolted route is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Ouch...I'll remember to never tease anyone with pink anywhere in or around the name. And I'll start a remedial reading program as well. And pay attention. Promise:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 No, the draw, Kevin. I think they were already there before I attempted the climb? Wasn't this route 5.12? Yes the draws are and have been hanging on The Crumbling since the FA. The grade in the guide book is 5.12a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Ground up routes are usually left unfinished. I think it is irresponsible as a route setter to ground up a route. Unfinished? Suppose it's a crack like most climbs are? ps, Route setters work in gyms. The routes on cliffs are already there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Unfinished? Suppose it's a crack like most climbs are? Most route setters who ground up....usually dont come back and clean the "Crack" properly. Therefore....leave it unfinished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 How is a "route" ever "unfinished?" It was finished millions of years ago when the rock cooled. I hate the term "route setter." In my mind, those are the nerds in the gym who put the tape up next to the holds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 hey look, a semantic argument! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 what are you? Anti-semantic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 what are you? Anti-semantic? no, i believe all words are equally worthless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 How is a "route" ever "unfinished?" Injuries. Lack of time. Laziness. Procrastination…..to name a few. I hate the term "route setter." In my mind, those are the nerds in the gym who put the tape up next to the holds. How small you’re thinking is…….I know lots of people who have established routes…..none of them have ever established a route in a gym. They are the route setter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 kevbone, i'll try to be gentle so you don't get upset, but: you are just afraid to climb face climbs that were established groundup. your argument could be expressed through this law: "there shall not exist any climbs having fewer bolts than i deem safe enough physically and/or psychologically for me to lead - if thou bolts too meagerly, thou art irresponsible to me, the future ascentionist, of whom you should have been thinking." some of the best, most popular, classic, etc. single pitch and multi-pitch routes on the planet were undeniably established groundup and have been climbed tens of thousands of times by now. or we can agree with you and call all those FA parties irresponsible because they didn't hike to the summit and drill bolts every 5-6 feet all the way down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 kevbone, i'll try to be gentle so you don't get upset, but: you are just afraid to climb face climbs that were established groundup. your argument could be expressed through this law: "there shall not exist any climbs having fewer bolts than i deem safe enough physically and/or psychologically for me to lead - if thou bolts too meagerly, thou art irresponsible to me, the future ascentionist, of whom you should have been thinking." some of the best, most popular, classic, etc. single pitch and multi-pitch routes on the planet were undeniably established groundup and have been climbed tens of thousands of times by now. or we can agree with you and call all those FA parties irresponsible because they didn't hike to the summit and drill bolts every 5-6 feet all the way down. Thanks for chiming in Crimp.....I am confused.....did you ask me a question? Because I cannot confirm I agree with any of your view points listed above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 you said that establishing climbs in a groundup ethic is irresponsible. but it's a fact that there are classic groundup climbs all over the planet, and plenty of them are reasonable and safe. so how can you possibly call those FA parties "irresponsible"? as if they even had a responsibility to you or any other future party! (beyond competently installing any fixed protection so that it would actually work as designed) face it, you don't like climbing above a bolt - but that's your problem, and you can't criticize the FA party because they didn't place as many bolts as you would have. and i don't like runouts either, and i've backed off plenty - but i would never blame the FA party for "ruining the route for me" or "wasting rock" or whatever you usually call a route you won't lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 The 'setting' of routes, much like the 'setting' of pins in the bowling alleys of days gone by, only happens indoors. 'Setting' in the case of 'routes' means the setting of the plastic holds. You're confusing the 'setting' of holds indoors, with the 'setting' of bolts outdoors. As pointed out by Bill and Rob above, routes outdoors are 'set' by nature (remember her), not us. And one would hope it would be difficult to confuse jugging 'route setters' (indoors) and rapping 'route bolters' (outdoors) with onsight, groundup, first ascensionists of any persuasion. True, the latter is usually not a consumer-oriented or consumer-friendly activity, but I still hold out hope that risk-averse, consumer-oriented 'climbing', even if now pervasive, won't entirely wipe out ancient (if not prehistoric) notions of climbing as 'irresponsible' shadows of the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steller Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 How is a "route" ever "unfinished?" Injuries. Lack of time. Laziness. Procrastination…..to name a few. I hate the term "route setter." In my mind, those are the nerds in the gym who put the tape up next to the holds. How small you’re thinking is…….I know lots of people who have established routes…..none of them have ever established a route in a gym. They are the route setter. Hey mate I got a video on that .. i can loan it to u after I get around to watchin it myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 but it's a fact that there are classic groundup climbs all over the planet, and plenty of them are reasonable and safe. Please define reasonable and safe? Sounds pretty subjective to me……. so how can you possibly call those FA parties "irresponsible"? easy….freedom of speech as if they even had a responsibility to you or any other future party! This is where might differ……when I set a route…I always thought about who would come after me. I understand that not everyone has that view…… face it, you don't like climbing above a bolt – Irrelevant you can't criticize the FA party because they didn't place as many bolts as you would have. Hell yes I can. See above….freedom of speech. Whatever dude…..climbers give their opinions to routes they climb EVERTIME THEY CLIMB SOMEONE ELSES CLIMB. You are included in that statement. As am I. I have fielded comment about routes I put up. I don’t moralize to them…….. “You don’t have the right to tell me your opinion”. but i would never blame the FA party for "ruining the route for me" or "wasting rock" or whatever you usually call a route you won't lead. Good for you. We are different. I also would not blame someone else for “ruining the route for me”. But I do think there is a lot of wasted rock….simply because of ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 kevbone, i think you have about 2 routes in mind that you consider a "waste of rock" or that are "irresponsible. please prove me wrong and name 10 groundup routes in the portland area that you think are irresponsible and a waste of rock. otherwise, i think you are just spraying...and trolling...and slacking at work...like usual...like me right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 The 'setting' of routes, much like the 'setting' of pins in the bowling alleys of days gone by, only happens indoors. I disagree 'Setting' in the case of 'routes' means the setting of the plastic holds. More disagreement. routes outdoors are 'set' by nature (remember her), not us. Uh….does “nature” trundle? Does “nature” clean moss off and dirt off? Does “nature” name a route? How about decide where the bolts go? Or if it needs bolts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 if a tree falls in the woods, can i have that wood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Please keep your wood to yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 The 'setting' of routes, much like the 'setting' of pins in the bowling alleys of days gone by, only happens indoors. I disagree You're free to disagree, but you'd be wrong - unless you're bolting plastic holds on your outdoor routes now. 'Setting' in the case of 'routes' means the setting of the plastic holds. More disagreement. You can also disagree with earth being round, too - people still do, but they, like you, are wrong. routes outdoors are 'set' by nature (remember her), not us. Uh….does “nature” trundle? Does “nature” clean moss off and dirt off? Does “nature” name a route? How about decide where the bolts go? Or if it needs bolts? No, but none of that beyond situating the bolts involves any 'setting' - you're 'setting' bolts on a climb that exists. If you can think of any other 'setting' that's happening, I'd love to hear it. I'm curious which part of the placing of plastic holds on a bunch of blank plywood to 'set' a route escapes you? You can certainly claim to be a 'route developer', but there are no route setters outdoors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 First and foremost……it’s always a pleasure to disagree and have a cyber discussion online with you JH. (You’re wrong) I hope all is well with you and your family (your wrong). I guess the disagreement comes with the word “setter” (your wrong). Setter implies the use of plastic holds to you? I do not use the term so in that way (your wrong). I would use it a little more liberal…..like the setting of a route would include bolts, cleaning (which is the bulk of my thoughts), anchors……etc…….(your very wrong). Either way….it does not matter. Have a (your super wrong) great day and hope to see you out at the drop soon to watch you sport climb. Yes…I say sport climb which is hypocrisy at its best. You the most outspoken bolt hater in the history of all climbing…..clipping bolts. Cant wait to see that……so you will get an earful of your hypocrisy. BTW….did I mention you are wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Kev, you are certainly free to keep using the word inappropriately. The issue there, and I suppose acounts for your affinity for it, is how it purposefully places the emphasis on the human versus the routes and loads it with ego. As in 'look at me' versus look at the routes. It also, implies you are responsible for the route's existence - a legitimate claim in a gym, an illegitimate one outdoors where you simply recognize, and in the case of sport climbing, equip, a route. Yes, I did place my first protection bolt last year and the day you lead it I'll be the first to call it a sport climb. Until then it's still a technical and spicy trad lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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