rocky_joe Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 When is it safest to climb in winter? Really I suppose I mean, how long does it take for the falling snow to turn into a reliable snow pack and reduce avy danger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnHigh Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 The safest time to climb is while you are staring at your computer. The potential for leader, rock, or ice fall or an avi is greatly minimized. Actually, with the shit ton of snow recently, the strong winds and their corny formations and the forecasted pinnapple express about to hit, slide potential will remain high. In the least it will suk to slog up there so why even consider it. Pray to the weather god for a long term high pressure system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 When is it safest to climb in winter? Really I suppose I mean, how long does it take for the falling snow to turn into a reliable snow pack and reduce avy danger? there is no simple answer to that question - basically, watch the avi forecast (there's a link to it somewhere on this site) and proceed w/ caution when in the hills - generally though, here in the nw, avi conditions subside pretty quickly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
111 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) http://www.nwac.us/ The snow needs some warm days and some cold days to help the snow layers crystalize and bond. That said, the deep layers may never warm and cool, leading to a very deep avalanche when the layers collapse. This is what happened last year around the NW when the 100 deg May weekend happened. There were nearly ground level avalanches all over, with a huge one inbounds at Whistler. Deep avalanches are hard to forecast. Bottom line, it is a risk you take in winter in the mountains. Take an avy course. It may save your life. As a side note, Northwest Avy danger this weekend is forcasted to move into EXTREME DANGER. Stay home. Edited January 6, 2009 by 111 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRbetaFlash Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 You're right. That's also sorta what caused the valentine's day avalanche we had at Baker back in the big snow year. I was there when this happened and it was actually a perfect example of what you just mentioned above. 14-day storm cycle, and then a short warming trend above and around freezing. I dug a pit that day right by chair 8 and we couldn't see a damn thing - because people don't dig 15-foot deep pits. It's key to observe weather/conditions over time. I can't explain this one enough. It was an effin' monster of a slide. http://www.nwac.us/documents/accidents/1998-1999/mbk_accident_report21499.htm nwac.us is your buddy, for sure. I've got that bookmaked everywhere. Use NWAC's forecasting plus observations from people that have been where you plan to go. Cross-reference everything. The guideline is that you should pay close attention to the changes in weather patterns and their durations. For example, note when temps pop up above freezing and back down again. Just monitoring melt-freeze cycles will give you an idea of what's getting buried and where it lies in the snowpack. There - that's one of the 998,238,392,297 ways you can figure out avalanche danger. Also, you're going to need to make your own observations when out and about. Direct observation is usually a large part of forecasting for the slopes you are about to be on. Like he said, take an avy course because it's so much more than can be conveyed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mtguide Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Seconds and thirds on "take an avy course", PLUS, once you've gotten your training for Level I, you want to progress on to level II and III if you intend to spend much time in the backcountry. It's not cheap, but then what is your life and the lives of your friends worth? Good avy training is a bargain at the price. Actually, this very kind of snow season we're having, is an excellent opportunity for learning and advancing your understanding of a wide variety of avalanche-prone conditions. The snowpack out there is a textbook example of everything under the sun and then some. And, PLUS PLUS, you want to practice,practice,practice. Any good avy course,even a Level I, should include enough hands-on with the various kinds of pits, snow crystal analysis, beacon practice,etc., to enable you to conduct your own practice, with the backcountry partners you'll be going with. Everybody needs to be fully equipped with beacon, probe, shovel, analysis kit, and all need to know how to use them with expertise. If someone gets buried, you have only minutes to locate them and dig them out. The most important thing is always, to take responsibility for your own safety, don't just leave it up to the group "expert". Even genuine experts can get caught, as demonstrated a couple years ago, sadly, during a trip guided by the famed Swiss guide Rudi Beglinger of Selkirk Mountain Experience near Revelstoke, B.C., on the Durrand glacier.This is one of the premier guide services and heli ski outfits in the NW. They lost several people on what was considered a normally very safe slope. Nor was it a very large slide. It's a common misunderstanding that the only dangerous slopes are the big ones. A little hill 8 or 10 feet high above a swale may not look like much, but it can certainly hold enough snow to completely bury and suffocate you. Another misconception is that you're safe if you're not actually on the slope, or if you're well out of the runout path. Well, surprise,surprise: Famed climber Alex Lowe was killed by a giant avalanche that traveled almost 5000 feet of elevation over several miles; they saw it break above them, and by the time they realized they were in it's path, they couldn't get out of the way in time. In the late 80's a massive slide at Utah's Alta ski area "escaped" the out-of-bounds area, jumped a huge ridge like water slopping out of a bathtub, and came smashing down onto a long-established ski run, snuffing out the lives of two snowboarders. Later that same year in Upper Logan Canyon,Utah, an immense slide traveled fully 12(yes,twelve) miles before finally jumping and burying the Logan Canyon highway 40 feet deep and fetching up against the opposite wall of the canyon. We went up to see the debris pile once the road was cleared. It was full of deer carcasses which looked as if they'd been through a meat grinder, chunks of trees about 3 or 4 feet long, many almost 2 or 3 feet in diameter, with all the bark stripped off and all the branches snapped off short, and boulders the size of cars and small houses. Very,very impressive. If you think I'm trying to scare you, may I hasten to assure you that I am. Get all the knowledge and training you can, and when the NWAC says the avalanche danger is high to extreme, stay the hell out of the backcountry. Even moderate avy danger is plenty of reason to modify trip plans to less risky areas. An avalanche is an avalanche is an avalanche, no matter what the conditions were rated, and you're still just as dead or seriously injured under a moderate forecast as you would be under an extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahT Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 EXTREME in a nutshell...(from nwac, for tues-thurs) In any case, some slides should run full depth and range up to 6 to 10 feet deep or more, with some running full path distance, expanding or extending current paths and destroying mature timber. Note that while some very large avalanches are expected, even small slides may produce injury or death. In some ways, extreme danger does not adequately emphasize the extent of the anticipated avalanche potential. Back country travel near or on steeper snow covered terrain should be avoided, and travelers should confine travel to flat terrain well away from avalanche path runouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musky333 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Also note that in December 2007 someone was killed in an avalanche just a half mile from Paradise. Check Mike's blog-archives from last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky_joe Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 thanks a lot for the responses. do you guys know of a good outfit in oregon to talk with about avi cert? I'm really interested in having spending a lot of time on the slopes and want to be as safe and informed as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtnhippy Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 You might try contacting Willamette Pass Backcountry patrol. I think they do avi training but not sure if it is open to the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benb Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 http://www.mountainsavvy.com/index.html Check out the link. The class was great. Glenn Kessler and his crew did a great job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparverius Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 You might try contacting Willamette Pass Backcountry patrol. I think they do avi training but not sure if it is open to the public. The Willamette Backcountry avi course wasn't opened to the public when I took it a few years ago. But it looks like OMA has one in addition to the mountain savy courses already mentioned: http://www.i-world.net/oma/trips/avalanche.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoudema Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I've taken the Mountain Savvy Level 1 course and can vouch for it being worthwhile also. I learned quite a bit from the class and would recommend it. Also, three sisters backcountry access does a Level 1 AAIRE class, though I haven't taken it. Here is the link: http://3sbca.com/classes/avalachelvl1.htm I've found two books to be very valuable resources as well. The first is "Staying alive in Avalanche Terrain" by Bruce Tremper. This is an excellent book that I would recommend owning. The second is "The Avalanche Handbook" by The Mountaineers. I'm partway through it right now, and it is also good. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnHigh Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 PSU is hosting a Level 1 AIARE avalanche seminar February 6-8th. For info call the PSU Outdoor Program 503-725-5668 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jclements Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) The PSU Course is done by Three Sisters Backcountry, and they have other dates, but they may be doing those down by Bend... This seems like a more thorough course- 3 days or 24 hrs of class... Edit: I meant more thorough than the 2-day class at Mtn Savvy, not the PSU class (same thing). http://3sbca.com/classes/avalachelvl1.htm Edited January 8, 2009 by jclements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkrhnk11 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I got my Level 1 cert through Three Sisters Backcountry and was very happy. They also have a Level two course(which I think already happened). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropegoat Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Several people have already mentioned, but I also recently attended a MountainSavvy course with Glen Kessler and his crew and want to drop a plug here for him. I definitely felt like I got more than my money's worth. Glen is top notch, and has been at this in the PNW for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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