sklag Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Just curious if it is OK to use a device (atc guide)in autoblock mode just by clipping a locking biner into the shelf of an anchor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toast Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 I don't think the house is gonna burn down, but given a choice it's better practice to use the powerpoint. Load distribution is set to equalize thru the power point. Clipping thru the shelf could load off kilter. More relevant for autoblocking devices, the shelf will sit higher than the powerpoint. Because of that the shelf will be more useful as a redirect point to unlock a loaded device. Do a search on lowering with one of these devices for images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Shelf? Whats a shelf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkporwit Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 If you tie a figure-8 or an overhand on a bight and orient the bight downwards, the shelf is the area above the knot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Now, you guys aren't just making sh*t up to fu* with an old man are ya? Check this out for a similar thread: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=731822 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 I don't think the house is gonna burn down, but given a choice it's better practice to use the powerpoint. Load distribution is set to equalize thru the power point. Clipping thru the shelf could load off kilter. More relevant for autoblocking devices, the shelf will sit higher than the powerpoint. Because of that the shelf will be more useful as a redirect point to unlock a loaded device. Do a search on lowering with one of these devices for images. Also, don't you lose redundancy if you clip through the shelf? Imagine a two-piece anchor; if the shelf is loaded and one side of the anchor fails, couldn't you have some catastrophic consequences for whoever is clipped into the shelf? But the powerpoint would still be redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hafilax Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 If you rig an anchor with a cordelette and a master point knot, the shelf is the strands above the knot on the side of the gear. If you properly clip the shelf then you are clipping through the loops so it is redundant. I don't think it's a great idea to belay off the shelf but I don't think it's dangerous if it's clipped properly. As for that supertopo thread, that is a different topic entirely although interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 As for that supertopo thread, that is a different topic entirely although interesting. Same question is do you belay off the anchor or not? As far at this specific answer goes for this thread, if you clip above the powerpoint, are you not then getting the failure at the weakest piece? If you clipped a single piece, then you might have guessed on the stronger of the 2 and be further ahead. Interesting that Pat Ament (Posts as Patrick Oliver), doesn't know what a Powerpoint is. Bet he's never heard of a shelf either:-) Probably a few hundred years of climbing experience in the first 26 posts alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 If you clip the shelf or the power point, the anchor is still redundant and equalized. Doesn't matter. The only time it wouldn't work out well is if you use a webolette to do the anchor and then the shelf is not so good as every piece doesn't have a "loop" of webbing. (unless you clip both ends to a piece) The "shelf" is the loops of webbing that go from the cordolette know to the pieces of pro of the anchor. A bigger question is why not just get a human partner? I would really not like the idea of having my life be hanging on a 6 ounce metal thing out of sight. (plus you got to pull down the belay strand) A better idea is to climb up a fixed line with a device on your harness to catch your fall. A device like an ascender but without teeth. There was a long thread a while ago and maybe someone could search it up. Dru? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike1 Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Just curious if it is OK to use a device (atc guide)in autoblock mode just by clipping a locking biner into the shelf of an anchor? ok? yes, but why not use the power point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hafilax Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 The OP is just asking about belaying a second off the anchor using a Anchors 1st Ed. fixed master point cordelette setup. No soloing, no leading, pretty simple question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peakpimp Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Sort of unrelated but here's what I read in John Long's book. "If your using a cordelette to connect the anchor pieces, another potential backup point is the "shelf" of the cordelette, which is the point right above the power point. This "shelf" also offers an alternative clip-in spot for whoever is leading the next pitch in a group of three or more. The practice results in one less tie-in at the power point, thereby opening it up for others to clip in, and it allows the leader to quickly unclip and take off on the next pitch." (Climbing Anchors p. 144) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 The greater the distance between the autoblock and the belayer, the easier it is to use, usually. In some cases, clipping the belay device into the shelf and hanging yourself off the powerpoint can give you six extra inches with every pull of the rope thru the device which results in a less tiring belay. Especially in those cases where you are hauling an icy rope with lots of rope drag through the anchor with frozen gloves and it takes all you've got just to pull the rope up. Just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sklag Posted November 27, 2008 Author Share Posted November 27, 2008 The greater the distance between the autoblock and the belayer, the easier it is to use, usually. In some cases, clipping the belay device into the shelf and hanging yourself off the powerpoint can give you six extra inches with every pull of the rope thru the device which results in a less tiring belay. That's what I was wondering. But if I extend myself off of the belay a foot or so I guess it's a mute point between the shelf or power point? Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Ya, you can clip in with your PAS or daisy to the powerpoint and have the belay right on the powerpoint and that's all the extension you need... assuming the ledge or hanging belay permits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_leclerc Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 I did it once... my partner fell and didnt die... I don't think its a big deal as long as you clip trough both loop.. but why wouldn't you just clip through the powerpoint? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike1 Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 (edited) I did it once... my partner fell and didnt die... I don't think its a big deal as long as you clip trough both loop.. but why wouldn't you just clip through the powerpoint? Good question... why didn't you? Edited November 28, 2008 by Mikester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 with the belay device and your connection to the powerpoint, you can have the two ropes (or rope and sling) rubbing together. This can be annoying as it is your connection to the anchor that is getting heated and possibly weakened. Having the belay device even a couple inches higher reduces this rubbing. It is also easier to pull rope through the device (main reason)like dru said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike1 Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 I get it. I guess I just haven't had an experience (yet) where I couldn't adjust my system to work from the main point. Thx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_leclerc Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I did it once... my partner fell and didnt die... I don't think its a big deal as long as you clip trough both loop.. but why wouldn't you just clip through the powerpoint? Good question... why didn't you? dont laugh now.. the anchor had a fixed line he had been using for cleaning earlier and I didn't see that my partner had set up the rope to have a 'powerpoint' to belay from.. so I just clipped to the shelf.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braydon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Sort of unrelated but here's what I read in John Long's book. "If your using a cordelette to connect the anchor pieces, another potential backup point is the "shelf" of the cordelette, which is the point right above the power point. This "shelf" also offers an alternative clip-in spot for whoever is leading the next pitch in a group of three or more. The practice results in one less tie-in at the power point, thereby opening it up for others to clip in, and it allows the leader to quickly unclip and take off on the next pitch." (Climbing Anchors p. 144) Geez Josh...the correct MLA citation would be (Long 144). Get with the program... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peakpimp Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Geez Josh...the correct MLA citation would be (Long 144). Get with the program... HA, HA yeah after digging out John's book I was too lazy to dig out my Bedford Guide for citations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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