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Dan_Larson

guye peak or tooth

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Originally posted by hollyclimber

I also think that the comments on this forum on my potential climbing ability from people who don't know me, which isn't even relevant to the topic, sort of illustrates that. I defend the mountaineers, I get slammed.

 

like anything on this bored is relevant to the real world..everything discussed here is for fun! and should be taken as that.

and as pope said, now one cares how hard you climb and no bady asked either...i am sure you just don't tell people your bra size. wink.gif

 

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My admittedly dated experience with Mountaineers is similar to my experience with dogs. They're at their best one on one when they aren't in "their" territory, and at their worst in packs. As with dogs, its sometimes hard to determine what a given Mountaineer defines as his/her territory.

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quote:

Originally posted by hollyclimber:

I don't think we want to discuss the pros and cons of the mountaineers in this thread...we could talk about it for a long time. My point is really that if Dan hadn't said those negative things about the mountaineers, which came across to me as a little extra rude considering that he was recently a part of their program, I might have been interested in climbing with him.

 

I also think that the comments on this forum on my potential climbing ability from people who don't know me, which isn't even relevant to the topic, sort of illustrates that. I defend the mountaineers, I get slammed.

 


Ummm..ok so you took things personally and don't want to climb with Dan. I saw multiple responses from people willing to climb with Dan. Doesn't sound like he has a problem.

I don't have a problem with the Mountaineers per se. I have been involved with both the basic and intermediate courses in the past and happen to think they are a great way to learn basic skills and meet people to climb with.

I do have a problem with some of the elitest types in the organization who let their egos steer them almost exclusively. The "I'm going to conquer the mountain attitude". Summits seem to be only ego trophys to put in their den.

The type of people who think the Mountaineers have the market cornered on competent and challenging climbing.

If your are happy being in and participating in Mountaineers activities why do you even give a shit what anybody else says. Again you seem to be overly sensitive on this.

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There is only one solution to the issues raised in this thread:

 

THE BATTLE CAGE!!!!! grin.gif

 

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The thunderdome! One night only... one climber armed with mountaineering axe and dynamic 9.7 rope whip, the other with double ice tools and foot fangs. Only one climber will be left standing, Battle to the death.

(Monster truck rally to follow aftrwards)

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BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!BATTLE CAGE!

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Two issues seem relevant here:

1. Mass-market climbing instruction

2. Experience, partnering, and attitude.

1. I've taught for several instructional programs, primarily rock, a couple of them college programs, and done private guiding. Organized instruction and a systematic learning process is a good thing, BUT...

The drawbacks are what come out here...sometimes egos come into play, some instructors are underqualified, and some insistence on certain methods that often have alternatives. Students learn in different styles and at different paces. These are part of what you accept when you get low-cost, often volunteered instruction. I personally got my initial instruction back when I was in college through the university outdoor program. I learned alot, and I was safe. At some point I began leading alot of trad (after extensive experience building gear anchors and starting five number grades below what I could toprope), began meeting sage old trad climbers and learned alot about alternative methods of doing things and climbing in a "real" scneario rather than an institutional one. This is a MAJOR distinction...private vs. institutional. My climbing practices vary drastically depending on the route, partner, etc. If I am on a personal climb I am more willing to take risks, climb faster, etc because I have confidence in my ability and my partner's (otherwise I wouldn't be on the route with them). When I am guiding I teach sound basics and instill the "themes" rather than the "rules" in my clients. If you understand the principles of what's going on you can more easily problem solve for a particular situation rather than relying on the "rules". When I am instruction in institutional settings I am essentially bound by their curriculum and their "way". I teach what they prescribe because I am their agent, and that is my responsibility (although I would never teach something I thought unsafe). I may do it differently, but these program err on the side of safety. To learn more about the "real" side of climbing hire a guide, easily the best $150-$300 you'll ever spend in advancing your climbing, or be patient and work through the progression of routes in your area, build your skills (both climbing and protecting) on forgiving routes. Best advice ever..."Don't challenge yourself in climbing and protecting at the same time" and like any advice there are exceptions (i.e. the Hollow Flake on the Salathe Wall, El Cap where a sandbag 5.9 no-pro chimney awaits you and it's go hard or go home).

2. Partnering is akin to romantic relationships...common interests help, but it's the chemistry that counts. While I won't usually take beginners out anymore unless I'm getting paid for it (I'm usually focused on my own development), I still take at least a few days each year to "donate" to newbies. I benefitted from the same system when I was starting out and I know how hard it is to get out of the top-roping, sport climbing, glacier slogging realm when all the people you climb with are at your same level. I don't think people should be railing against the Mountaineers, you may not want to continue with their program, but it is an effective way to learn the basics quickly and cheaply. When you are ready to move on, do so, but it seems to me that the negativity against this organization came out because the original message poster was looking for partners while advertising his Mountaineers involvement as his experience base. This made alot of potential partners wary...new climber, just completed some course, excited, ready to tackle the world (we've all seen or been that guy too many times), and when that wary attitude came across it became necessary to diss the group to try to improve "street cred". It essentially did the opposite, you are dissing the group that taught you...how do I know you'll respect my practices and won't decide to root around in your pack while I'm 80' out on a sketchy hooking pitch? We are dealing with life/death situations here, just be honest, "I don't have alot of practical experience, but I've completed the XYZ aid climbing course. I've never done a Grade IV. I personally didn't care for the instructional practices of XYZ, and some of their members had ego issues, so i won't be continuing with them, I'd rather get real world experience at this point with someone a little more experienced." Something you'll remember long after that heinous crumbling A4 blade crack is the bond with your partner...reassuring you, inspiring you with his/her own leads, sending the pure vibes your way. I have had about 100 different partners and only three of them have I ever really clicked with. Everything is amplified when the climbing gets hard...including bad vibes between partners. I came close to a punch-up with one partner while descending a winter peak climb...a funny sight that would've been, trying to beat each other senseless between bouts of gasping for air and throwing up from the exertion. At the opposite end of the spectrum I did the Lost Arrow tip, with the complicated logistics of the tyrolean back to the rim, with two Koreans who I met in Camp 4 a week before that barely spoke english and it was a great, positive outing. Enough rambling and run on sentences, just keep climbing and practicing skills like anchor building, etc. You'll realize how small and accepting the climbing community is soon enough.

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So, Will , you are a guide eh? And you are also looking for partners I see on the partners wanted page....

How much are you going to bill them at the end of the day?? devil.gif

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Huh...M-courses versus Battlecages versus smokin pot versus...I'm totally messed. So do we have (inter)course after the battlecage is done?

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Hey Dru,

How much do I charge 'em? Ya know, that depends on whether they give me the reach around or not...

Yes I guide, but yes I am new to the NW, not settling permanently, just here to check out the climbing and pay off some debt. So, naturally I'm looking for partners for local stuff.

Most of the guiding I do is on my "home" turf of southern UT, NC, TN, GA, AL...pays the bill for going home to see the folks for the holidays.

 

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RECOMONDATIONS FOR OBTAINING PARTNERS & KEEPING THEM:

1. if you are setting plans and the bro who is going to take you, tells you that he is leaving a warm sexually inviting bed containing his beautuful girlfriend and that he was originally going to spend the day with her, your ass better be there. especailly if he is driving to the eastside of king county from tacoma, during rush hours!

2. if you do have to bail and you know your bro, doesn't have a phone # to call, and who knows if he will be checking his email in the morning. you might want to leave a note on your door, outlining the situation. so he can better deal with and not wait around the front of your house, thinking you are possibly asleep, cause that is where wants to be.(asleep!)

3. if are unable to contct your bro(and feel real bad about it) you might want to do a follow up email or some sort of similar communication. especially if you want to climb with him again.

4. and hope that his bro jamie in kirkland is home, so he can go to index and salvage the wasted drive!

with these and a few other litle tricks of the trade you can too can have a healthy climbing partnership with many hard cranking homeboys and girlz!

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Eric apparently you better get a phone or start checking your e-mail. I e-mailed you twice out of concern that you not drive to meet me so I could go to the hospital to be with my father who was not doing well at the time . So accept part of the blame at least. I don't care how long you have been climbing or how clever you THINK you are on these sites with that kind of selfishness and lack of concern I have no interest in climbing with a little kid who posses your immature attitude . Be a good BOY now.

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Erik! You are getting it on with your warm sexually inviting bed???? What does your girl think about that? Maybe you should get with Timmy and hump some trees.

Seriously, will climb with anyone/anytime for beer and Scooby Snacks...

Mike

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Dan Larson,

For an new climber you sure have a well developed attitude. Just because you climbed the Tooth and took the MTNs course don't think for a minute you know anything about climbing. Do yourself a favor and lose the 'tude, offer to do all the driving and buy the beer and maybe you will have better luck finding partners. You are at the stage of your climbing career where you don't yet realize how much you don't know.

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The reality is that climbing the Tooth, in no way, prepares one for the exposure and objective danger inherent in a climb like Guye Peak. I began lead climbing on trad gear this year, and feel quite comfortable leading the Tooth, with all of the relatively solid rock and comforting ledges. Then I lead Saber, a lower graded climb on Castle Rock, and nearly shat my drawers. I suspect that a multi-pitch 5.7 might be even more "pucker-inducing".

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Mike Buker:

Ha! That was my exact experience as well going from Tooth to Saber.

So Dan, go find Castle Rock near Leavenworth and lead Saber, then lead Canary, then come back and tell us all about it.

 

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This website was a great idea. I come on here from time to time to see if there is any useful information and all there is, is crap. Let's keep it about the hills!

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I wasn't trying to lay some shit on Dan about leading anything at all; I was trying to make a point about mountaineering relativity. Multi-pitch trad climbing is a dangerous and nebulous world. Nothing but experience and education can keep you from crying to your Mama, then praying for deliverence. Dan will be ready to lead, when Dan is practiced and I'm willing to help. My dick is big enough to teach others, as well as to learn. R&D is the place to start.

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quote:

Originally posted by jtljohnson:

I come on here from time to time to see if there is any useful information and all there is, is crap.

C'mon now, there's all kinds of useful info:

Size of each person's dick, how many scotch and waters I had last night, hottest chick in the mags...

As much screwing around as there is here, there's also tons of info on a daily basis. I notice this particularly because I am new to the NW. Between the trip reports, route conditions,anchor conditions, etc I get alot of useful info. There are also plenty of experienced people willing to give their insight on pros and cons of various technical issues (such as stoves, 6mm rap lines, etc) and with that much input you can be pretty shure that you'll get all the relevant points covered within a few days.

I return to this site daily for the "crap" you speak of. Makes the workday a hell of alot more bearable when there's some crusty climber humor goin' round. Think of it as a drunken fireside chat, not a Senate hearing.

I laugh out loud at least once a day reading something Dwayner, Pope, Limpbone, Caveman, Dru or the other site "regulars" put up.

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"limpbone"!!!!!!

Ohhhh dude... thats it man I'm callin' you out! Look Will, since you are only in the PNW to pay off your debt, I have no quams about telling you to go back to the east coast! Get out of here!! There are too many guides cluttering up these mountains already!

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Dan,

I feel for ya man, it's tough to find a good partner this day and age. But I give you credit for putting in some effort and gettin' on some shit. It's cool if you only done "easy" stuff. Everyone has to start somewhere. Keep at it! I'd help you out, but I save the easy trips for my fiance!

My word of wisdom...

Since you are obviously willing to kick down and learn from the proffesionals, do yourself a favor. Spend a little more $ and learn some self rescue techniques. I can't believe that I climbed for almost twelve years without knowing how to escape the belay. I am just a lucky bastard. But If the shit goes down, you will want a bag of tricks to pull from. And I doubt the Mountaineers Basic Course gave you that bag.

If you want to prove all these fools wrong, and really get serious about climbing, get the skills to deal with the shit BEFORE it hits the fan. Happy Climbing!

[This message has been edited by lambone (edited 06-27-2001).]

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Easy there limpy,

I'm not only here for the debt, but also for new climbing. Kinda figured I had to get a "real" job for a while, people are chill out here, Portland is a great city, blah blah blah. I'm not for big cities in general, but if you gotta live in one...can't really beat P'town.

Cluttering up the hills out here? I wouldn't be so brash as to "guide" in unfamiliar territory and I didn't come here to guide...I'm flying a desk designing roads/bridges/infrastructure. Besides, I wouldn't wish the east coast on anyone, it's a mean spirited kind of place. I haven't lived in the east for years, Utah feels alot more like home (you don't notice the fucked up politics when you're in a town of 300 people) than the east ever did.

So sit back my brutha, load the bowl, give the fiance' big hug and dig on the fact that you're young, in love, climbing hard, and it's summer...life's pretty good no?

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O.K. guys , I know how I sound . Maybe I don't take shit too well . But the reality is recently I have been fortunate enough to learn from much more experienced climbers than my self.You think I am some cocky newby . Newby ,yes but when I am with a more experienced climber they have my complete attention and RESPECT.With the life that I have lead I feel that I do deserve to defend myself(long story). It is great being out in the mountains and the little bit of experience that I have gives me pride and joy.Attempted Rainier twice in the last week ,First time tried to go straight through without a break at muir (except to rope up)got to the top of dissapointment cleaver and my partner was smart enough to admit he was feeling really sick and we turned around (heartbreaking for me since I had already been weathered out a few times).Anyway I went back 4days later (sun/mon) rested 8hrs. at muir and summited mon morning. We were very lucky since only a little before we realized it was going to clear up we had no hope because of the snowstorm on the way up to muir.Like a good newby I waited in the bushes until RMI had been gone a half an hour and eagerly followed the fresh path in the new foot or so of snow.What do ya all think ? I know the routes are terribly crevassed and I hear this an abnormal year because of the low snowfall. Any chance the emmons or Ingraham will be doable in 3 to 4 weeks ? Lots of stupid questions I know but like the mountaineers say the only stupid question is (blah blah)......Dan

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