el jefe Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 nice posting, bob. i agree about the body fat issue. "losing 10 to 15 pounds" is a pretty arbitrary goal and probably not realistic for john, who i understand is pretty fit to begin with. the best advice in the old goddard and neumann book (performance rock climbing) was to figure out your weaknesses and work on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_p Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 5'11" 220# 2 min even 3-Sheesh! grade 4 Snowline Evan-Thomas area K-Country Alberta 3 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 5'10" 156 butt naked 2 min even 12+3/4 (no kipping) WI-3 (but I've probably only led 6 pitches of ice ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad_A Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I was thinking about Bob's post, my own theories, and how my numbers probably don't mean much for directly predicting what kind of performance I would have on ice (or any other medium, as far as that goes); then, while surfing, I ran across this which I hadn't seen before on the Gym Jones site, written by MFT...it seems to touch a bit on this subject. "Why is such specificity and volume necessary? If mere fitness were the dominant contributor to success in a sport then the fittest would also be the best. But over and over I have seen incredibly fit athletes – by all measures and testing – lose to less fit athletes who have better technical (neurological) skills. It happens in climbing all of the time. It happens in jiu-jitsu. It surely happens running, cycling and Nordic skiing. Great technique differentiates athletes at the highest level; most top tier athletes share similar degrees of fitness. This being the case, technical training must take precedent, which begs the questions, how much conditioning is appropriate to one’s sport? How strong is strong enough? How transferable is one’s “artificial” training? If the answer to the latter is “not very,” meaning significant re-education is required then sport-specific training is preferable because the brain and central nervous system must continually learn and refine specific motor skills. Achieving fitness at the expense of skill is a waste of time and resources so using “cross-training” as the primary means of improving sport performance is a dead end. That said it’s a fine approach to basic conditioning, and a useful supplement, or diversion in the off-season for active athletes. Of course, one can improve endurance performance by, for example, increasing strength and muscle contractility but this is a single characteristic of endurance fitness and speed, and like anaerobic metabolism, finite. It’s easy to pick a particular aspect of the whole and make it one’s shtick. And it’s a trap. I’ve fallen into it, as have others: we have ignored the diverse characteristics of specific fitness to our detriment." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 the book "How to climb 5.12" has some similar comments. For me it boiled down to the best training for climbing is climbing. Climb lots, climb variety, climb near your limit. Projecting to submission at or above your upper limit is not as effective for overall improvement as getting mileage on a greater variety at or near your limit. Strength training wasn't even recommended until your trying to push into 5.11+ range, and even then your better off with focused training (to work on your weaknesses). Bulk strength also has little do with good footwork or creative resting/problem solving which always seems to get me further than pulling harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 i agree. whenever i have made progress, it was because i had been spending a lot of time climbing. climbing is a very technique-intensive activity, and you can only really hone the technique by doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Sorry at the moment can't give any real numbers John. I tried but realized quickly how I climb ice....and it isn't from pullups But a few observations from my own experiences. I think until you get to the point where you are climbing longer sections of vertical ice, (WI5) in bad conditions, technique will long over shadow strength. Your choosen climbing technique (X or A), hang time (or grip strength), good tool cleaning techniques and inventive footwork (placements, movement and rests) go much farther than the number of pull ups you can do. Never could do more than a few pull ups even when I was able to climb 5.12 cracks but, I could hang longer than most. The rests that ability afforded me and decent foot work would generally allow me to get up things. But I never could do a pull up, still can't. When you start talking leashless or leash there are so many other variables that make leashless faster, easier and warmer while climbing ice. The best of the newer tools give you pleanty of hand support. It is just a different area of support than a leash. And yes you can fall off a leashless system and make it impossible to fall out of a leash. Either way you can easily take a whipper if you aren't careful. The question to ask is when and why you'll fall with either system? (which will allow you to climb faster/keep your hands warmer/make fewer placements/save strength) But you'll still need the grip strength and hang time to take advantage of leashless. Not everyone will be able to take advantage of that. (although I think it is more climbers than you might first think) No question, more instant pullup strength will allow you to climb harder at what ever level you are at. But better foot work and balance will generally always out shine any pull up strength. Classic example is the guy and girl who start climbing together...she is a 110# weakling and can't do a pullup. He is a muscle bound stud that can do a one arm pullup. Girl out climbs guy from the very beginning...and by the time he developes the balance and footwork she has, the girl has developed the strength to still stay ahead of him. Finally I don't generally find that pure strength is the issue when I fail on an ice climb. It is generally bad ice which makes tool placements hard (to get in or get out) and worse yet, getting decent pro, that I'd be willing to trust. Most who get to ice climb at their leisure don't take on long sections of vertical ice when it is really cold or rotten. (WA climbers could well be an exception) Both good times to have extra arm stregth and lots of pull up power. By the time you get to that skill level you generally know to come back when conditions are better and the climbing...even on the "hard stuff" easier. Good ice climbers generally argue that there isn't really anything harder than WI5. And we all know the kind of gear that grade was first climber with. Better to go looking for "M" climbing or ice out of condition. Good place to be able to whip out a few dozen one arm pullups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted September 8, 2008 Author Share Posted September 8, 2008 Awesome points and info all around everyone! I guess I asked about the # of pullups as dont any of you remember how many pullups Alex Lowe did (or at least what people said)... I believe I read somewhere he did like 500 in a day once. And yeah some of it might be part of the "lung with legs" hype but I believe all would agree Alex was really really strong. I honestly think as long as you arent increasing your overall mass that strength is a great thing. And I totally agree: technique is king. Always has been always will be. But for those of us that lack the time/ice to master technique need to supplement. Like strength... Ill try to add more to this soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 (1) 132 lbs. 5'5-1/2" (2) 60 seconds hang (BD Cobras) (3) 12 pullups this is supposed to be a rest day after a hard climb attempt on Index yesterday, so might do better with 24 hrs rest. (4) WI5 (solo years ago) lately roped Weeping Wall (right side, led all) Lake Louise Falls (led all) Murchison (right side) Drury (5)Ice climbing 15 years and one other stat you forgot (6) 50 years old the hardest part of ice climbing is placing screws so another relevant technique stat might be, how long does it take you to place a screw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 1. What is your height and weight? 2. How long can you hang from your ice tools leashless? One attempt dead hang (no feet). Chalk, shake out, switch grips, etc etc but when your feet touch the ground stop the clock. Use what ever pair of tools you want but note make/model. 3. How many leashless pull ups can you do on your ice tools in one attempt? Same as above: chalk, shake out, switch grips, etc etc but when your feet touch the ground stop the clock. Use what ever pair of tools you want but note make/model. 4. What WI grade do you comfortable lead? Hardest lead to date (location/route)? How long have you been ice climbing? 1: 5'10" 185 2: Don't know 3: 18. Not on my tools, but on a couple of hanging dowels I rigged up. I should try it with grip rests sometime... 4: WI4. Shriek of the Sheep 2nd pitch, but I peeled off that bitch when I got a tool stuck and my crampon readjusted itself in the process of trying to free it. 5: 2 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad_A Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Awesome points and info all around everyone! I guess I asked about the # of pullups as dont any of you remember how many pullups Alex Lowe did (or at least what people said)... I believe I read somewhere he did like 500 in a day once. And yeah some of it might be part of the "lung with legs" hype but I believe all would agree Alex was really really strong. I honestly think as long as you arent increasing your overall mass that strength is a great thing. And I totally agree: technique is king. Always has been always will be. But for those of us that lack the time/ice to master technique need to supplement. Like strength... Ill try to add more to this soon I see where you're coming from; he was quite the marvel. What's incredible to me (and what in IMHO was the true marvel) was his lead head and technique. The pictures in Winter Dance of him leading some of those climbs give me the goosebumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbcbd Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Of course it helps to get oneself fit for a specific activity. It doesn't hurt to be stronger, leaner, and fitter. I just think that climbing, especially ice, is very much about energy conservation. The better you can do that, the longer and steeper you'll be able to climb. And energy conservation comes with technique, skill, and experience. When you learn how to read the ice better to get those good one swing sticks, place your screws more efficiently, find good feet and rests and keeping off your toes as much as possible... that goes a much longer way than fitness. So I say, yes, get stronger. But I still like to approach a climb not as a fit powerhouse (overconfident in my strength), but as a stingy weakling refusing to give too much energy on a climb. A comment I read from a guy who watched Steve House guiding at an NH ice fest last year: "It was amazing to see all the no-hands rests that he would find" All right, all this talk... I need some ice now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 I knew a guy that could only do five pullups and could lead pretty much any pure ice route. He'd led all the (WI6+ish)big rigs in the rockies. --------------- Ice seems to be more about head and balls. When I was a younger sport climber weighing 139 and getting up the occasional 13 rock route, I'd frequently chicken out and pump out on steep ice leads. Now as an older fatter, veteran I do much better (and we don't use leashes anymore). I got the ice bug today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbcbd Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Good article touching on the mental aspect and some tips to help calm the mind: http://neice.com/2007/TechTips/Inpractice2_ScottB.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.