And the Accusations Begin!

[StevenSeagal]

or Everest news dot com telling us we "should treat the death of a porter and Sherpa the same as a European or American", I have never seen a single instance of a American climber or Journalist minimize a death because he was a Sherpa or Porter.

 

I've seen plenty of times where the efforts and accomplishments of porters, and especially the Sherpas, are either minimized or not reported at all while we get breathless reports and book deals about some guided clients "conquest" of some Himalayan peak, which little did we know, was made entirely possible by the real climbers working behind the scenes.

 

By the way...You sure you haven't seen a single instance of a porter or Sherpa death minimized? What was the name of the Pakistani porter who fell to his death? I can't seem to find it in any of the press. I also can only find the names of the European climbers- the Koreans were just named as "Koreans". Right now I can only envision some hapless, nameless, expendable brown skinned guy dressed in goat skin clothing sliding past all the colorful down suited white people. Does this Pakistani have a name, address, and family information? That might make him human.

 

[StevenSeagal]

or crossing a ladder on a Rainier crevasse set up and anchored by someone else.

 

If on your descent you discovered the ladder gone, I would hope that you'd have the resourcefulness to figure out another way around the obstacle, as well as to evaluate the ladder's integrity in the first place.

[ryland_moore]

The deaths of these climbers is a sad tragedy in the sense that it appears from my couch that these deaths were preventable. Blaming equipment or fixed ropes for placing ones self in harms way is nothing more than not taking responsibility for your own actions and placing blame on other people or objects to make yourself feel better. The reason so many climbers died, in my opinion, was not due to equipment failuer or fixed lines in the wrong place but simply was the "heard mentality" and if other people are climbing these fixed ropes then it must be o.k. If the climbers speaking out now and placing blame on others (porters, equipment, etc.)were so concerned about the placement of the fixed lines and shoddy equipment, as they seem to be voicing, then they have two options. They can fix their own damn lines in a safer spot or they can turn around and live to climb another day. They chose neither of these options, so anyone involved in this tragedy is responsible for their own deaths or their own need for a rescue.

 

Some may write this off as dumb luck or being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but these climbers knew the issues and risks. If a climber didn't know that standing under an icefall for 1 1/2 hours was a risky objective danger, then they shouldn't have been on the mountain in the first place or are just plain crazy. Again, my opinion.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

clearly, MLUs were in order

 

[Spencer]

or crossing a ladder on a Rainier crevasse set up and anchored by someone else.

 

If on your descent you discovered the ladder gone, I would hope that you'd have the resourcefulness to figure out another way around the obstacle, as well as to evaluate the ladder's integrity in the first place.

 

Of course I would be able to route-find my way back down if the ladder was gone or unsafe, that was not my point, but rather if you really have climbed a great deal there are many instances of having to trust someone else or rely on another climber, as I said even Ed Viesturs and Dave Hahn use those fixed lines and Dave on his last Summit of Everest commented on how much easier it was because so many had made a good route ahead of him.

only those who haven't done much climbing would say they never have to depend on someone else, all I can say is "BELAY ON"!

 

[StevenSeagal]

 

Of course I would be able to route-find my way back down if the ladder was gone or unsafe, that was not my point, but rather if you really have climbed a great deal there are many instances of having to trust someone else or rely on another climber, as I said even Ed Viesturs and Dave Hahn use those fixed lines and Dave on his last Summit of Everest commented on how much easier it was because so many had made a good route ahead of him.

 

There's no doubt it's easier to use the fixed lines. But you make it sound like there's just no other choice but to use them- trust them-with the absence of them as well as the lack of strength and/or skill to downclimb the route resulting in death. Nobody has the option to carry a rope and plan to rappel past steep sections? Sounds like a lot of not thinking outside the box.

 

 

 

only those who haven't done much climbing would say they never have to depend on someone else, all I can say is "BELAY ON"!

 

Hey chest puffer, I don't care how many decades you've been climbing, the fact is your definition of "depend on someone else" is personal and subjective. Depending on someone else is more often than not a choice, and when it's chosen without a backup plan, it's utter foolishness.

Belay OFF.

[Spencer]

 

Of course I would be able to route-find my way back down if the ladder was gone or unsafe, that was not my point, but rather if you really have climbed a great deal there are many instances of having to trust someone else or rely on another climber, as I said even Ed Viesturs and Dave Hahn use those fixed lines and Dave on his last Summit of Everest commented on how much easier it was because so many had made a good route ahead of him.

 

There's no doubt it's easier to use the fixed lines. But you make it sound like there's just no other choice but to use them- trust them-with the absence of them as well as the lack of strength and/or skill to downclimb the route resulting in death. Nobody has the option to carry a rope and plan to rappel past steep sections? Sounds like a lot of not thinking outside the box.

 

 

 

only those who haven't done much climbing would say they never have to depend on someone else, all I can say is "BELAY ON"!

 

Hey chest puffer, I don't care how many decades you've been climbing, the fact is your definition of "depend on someone else" is personal and subjective. Depending on someone else is more often than not a choice, and when it's chosen without a backup plan, it's utter foolishness.

 

I'm thinking some who attains "veterans status" on a climbing forum believes that holds some real world relevance.

If pointing out that in my 30yrs of climbing I have yes in fact been in the apparently unusual spot of trusting other climbers, then yes I am a "chest beater".

My point was you can't fault someone for expecting the ropes to be set up correctly, and as far as them freezing up and not moving because they were scared or didn't have the experience to down climb, I think the jury is still out on all the details.my understanding was in addition to the avalanche they ran out of oxygen which I am sure made decision making much more difficult.

It's funny so many here are ready to judge this group of climbers , however in our own back yard a few months ago when that poor guy died of exposure just below Muir, ( sad story) No Body not one person on this site pointed out that these so called experienced climbers went up on a day hike without so much as a emergency blanket on a day when the University of Washington forecast called for just what they got 45 mile an hour winds and blizzard like conditions. the Rangers said when he was found his clothes were wet and frozen, yet from the rangers on down nothing but silence, be careful about what you say their locals. but these climbers on the other side of the world on K2 we have no problem judging them.

 

Belay OFF.

[StevenSeagal]

I'm thinking some who attains "veterans status" on a climbing forum believes that holds some real world relevance.

If pointing out that in my 30yrs of climbing I have yes in fact been in the apparently unusual spot of trusting other climbers, then yes I am a "chest beater".

 

Thanks, I'll take this under advisement. And here I thought the more I posted the more I knew about climbing. Who would know that you and your modest 79 posts meant that you're actually the reticent hardman of the site? Well, all of us know now, because you've told us twice in this thread. It was 30 years, right?

 

 

My point was you can't fault someone for expecting the ropes to be set up correctly, and as far as them freezing up and not moving because they were scared or didn't have the experience to down climb, I think the jury is still out on all the details.my understanding was in addition to the avalanche they ran out of oxygen which I am sure made decision making much more difficult.

 

If there's a debate to be had about this, it's not about the individuals involved here. It's about the collective mindset and consciousness of expedition mountaineering that has developed over decades, and which consistently puts people in the position to make the sorts of value judgments and decisions we see precipitating these disasters in the first place. Mountaineering on these peaks is a junk show and has been for a long time. Either have the discussion and make a fundamental change, or quit acting so surprised when this stuff happens and trying to attribute it all to bad luck.

 

 

 

It's funny so many here are ready to judge this group of climbers , however in our own back yard a few months ago when that poor guy died of exposure just below Muir, ( sad story) No Body not one person on this site pointed out that these so called experienced climbers went up on a day hike without so much as a emergency blanket on a day when the University of Washington forecast called for just what they got 45 mile an hour winds and blizzard like conditions.

 

 

Not true. Someone even got banned.

 

[sobo]

...It's funny so many here are ready to judge this group of climbers , however in our own back yard a few months ago when that poor guy died of exposure just below Muir, ( sad story) No Body not one person on this site pointed out that these so called experienced climbers went up on a day hike without so much as a emergency blanket on a day when the University of Washington forecast called for just what they got 45 mile an hour winds and blizzard like conditions. the Rangers said when he was found his clothes were wet and frozen, yet from the rangers on down nothing but silence, be careful about what you say their locals. but these climbers on the other side of the world on K2 we have no problem judging them.

Spencer,

If you are referring to the Eduard Burceag tradegy, then one needs to look no further than about the second and fourth replies, wherein counterfeitfake and JoshK state that they walked right into what anyone could have predicted they got had they looked at a weather forecast.

 

So you're argument that "No Body not one person on this site" judging them in hindsight just doesn't hold water. We can armchair quarterback on our own local climbers just as well as we can QB about climbers halfway around the world, thankyouverymuch.

[EWolfe]

Here's someone with a firm grasp on what it's all about:

 

 

[StevenSeagal]

Here's someone with a firm grasp on what it's all about:

 

 

 

What a worthless sack of shit.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Here's someone with a firm grasp on what it's all about:

 

 

 

What a worthless sack of shit.

 

Why do men to these things? To get away from women like the author of that piece (of shit).

 

[olyclimber]

umm....the woman should read the book posted earlier in this thread

[kevino]

what a dumb bitch. If she's never heard of k2, she's probably never heard of women climbers either, which would totally debunk her idea that women don't do "stupid things."

[Choada_Boy]

 

I too feel the urge to "magnificently waste" my life when faced with the thought of this butter hog getting her hooves on me...

 

She completely ignores the fact that women are also great at killing themselves on high mountains. Anyone care to speculate on the gender ratios:

 

1) Probability of success

2) Probability of dying on descent after unsuccessful attempt

3) Probability of dying on descent after successful attempt

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I too feel the urge to "magnificently waste" my life when faced at the thought of this butter hog getting her hooves on me...

 

 

I'd prefer dying on K2 than dying, sitting on my ass, with clogged arteries - the fate this lady appears to be headed for.

 

[sobo]

I too feel the urge to "magnificently waste" my life when faced at the thought of this butter hog getting her hooves on me...

Butter hog! I'm gonna hafta remember that one...

[kevino]

or the ratio of

 

4)people enjoying her opinion to people that want her to die on a mountain

[AlpineK]

I think Maggie Gallagher should definitely come to Rope Up to edumacate us idjuts.

[Spencer]

I stand corrected, if after I seen the original thread it didn't blame but rather discussed the importance of being prepared even going up to Muir, however I did see the post by the guy who brought up the weather report which clearly did call for terrible weather, which cancelled a trip my sons and I had planned to Rainier that Monday.

and yes I seen the response, which was not to judge or make negative statement about them, I didn't know someone was banned over it.

I tell you what if I am killed climbing I hereby give permission to anyone on climbers.com to discuss my death even critical mistakes I may have made, so that others might learn from my mistakes. and in turn anyone who sugar coats my mistakes may be held liable. there that should do it.

Well headed up the DC tomorrow with my boys see your on the slopes.

[EWolfe]

This is just too unbelievable not to repost:

 

 

The saddest part of it all is how senseless these 11 deaths are. The Marines rushing into urban conflict in Anbar province I can wholeheartedly admire. The firemen who ran into the burning towers of 9/11 and lost their lives, I remember in my prayers with gratitude and admiration.

 

But somehow we live in a world where not enough men find real avenues for masculine achievement. They are moved to take enormous risks, like climbing K2, for no particular reason in a world that (apparently) offers them insufficient real outlets for their heroism.

 

To the 11 dead on K2: Salute! We used to send such men out to explore new continents, conquer frontiers or defeat the barbarians.

 

Now 11 good men have lost their lives climbing a mountain for no particular reason. Because it was there, they no longer are.

 

What a magnificent waste!

 

 

 

 

 

[Fairweather]

This is just too unbelievable not to repost:

 

 

The saddest part of it all is how senseless these 11 deaths are. The Marines rushing into urban conflict in Anbar province I can wholeheartedly admire. The firemen who ran into the burning towers of 9/11 and lost their lives, I remember in my prayers with gratitude and admiration.

 

But somehow we live in a world where not enough men find real avenues for masculine achievement. They are moved to take enormous risks, like climbing K2, for no particular reason in a world that (apparently) offers them insufficient real outlets for their heroism.

 

To the 11 dead on K2: Salute! We used to send such men out to explore new continents, conquer frontiers or defeat the barbarians.

 

Now 11 good men have lost their lives climbing a mountain for no particular reason. Because it was there, they no longer are.

 

What a magnificent waste!

 

 

 

 

 

She's correct.

[carolyn]

Here's someone with a firm grasp on what it's all about:

 

 

 

I recently finished the book, Savage Summit, about some of the women who have climbed K2 (HIGHLY recommend, btw). Maybe I will send this woman my copy to read.

 

Nick Rice's dispatches from earlier in the season and approaching summit day are somewhat revealing of the situation. I think there is a link on k2.net

 

 

Carolyn

[blurpy]

This is just too unbelievable not to repost:

 

 

The saddest part of it all is how senseless these 11 deaths are. The Marines rushing into urban conflict in Anbar province I can wholeheartedly admire. The firemen who ran into the burning towers of 9/11 and lost their lives, I remember in my prayers with gratitude and admiration.

 

But somehow we live in a world where not enough men find real avenues for masculine achievement. They are moved to take enormous risks, like climbing K2, for no particular reason in a world that (apparently) offers them insufficient real outlets for their heroism.

 

To the 11 dead on K2: Salute! We used to send such men out to explore new continents, conquer frontiers or defeat the barbarians.

 

Now 11 good men have lost their lives climbing a mountain for no particular reason. Because it was there, they no longer are.

 

What a magnificent waste!

 

 

 

 

 

She's correct.

 

uh, which part? that 11 mountaineers died on some peak she'd never heard of, or that women don't climb mountains?

[Fairweather]

This is just too unbelievable not to repost:

 

 

The saddest part of it all is how senseless these 11 deaths are. The Marines rushing into urban conflict in Anbar province I can wholeheartedly admire. The firemen who ran into the burning towers of 9/11 and lost their lives, I remember in my prayers with gratitude and admiration.

 

But somehow we live in a world where not enough men find real avenues for masculine achievement. They are moved to take enormous risks, like climbing K2, for no particular reason in a world that (apparently) offers them insufficient real outlets for their heroism.

 

To the 11 dead on K2: Salute! We used to send such men out to explore new continents, conquer frontiers or defeat the barbarians.

 

Now 11 good men have lost their lives climbing a mountain for no particular reason. Because it was there, they no longer are.

 

What a magnificent waste!

 

 

 

 

 

She's correct.

 

uh, which part? that 11 mountaineers died on some peak she'd never heard of, or that women don't climb mountains?

 

That climbing a big mountain like K2 (or any dangerous peak) serves no purpose and that "heroism" has better definitions already available. I think it was Mallory's son who recounted later in his life that as a boy he didn't understand or care that his father would be a climbing hero and legend--only that his dad never came home.