Dangerous Belay Biners? What to buy?

[Jens]

All my life I've belayed with the UIAA recommended method of clipping the locking carabiner to the swami and legloops. About seven or so years ago, the UIAA reccommended a new method: clipping the bleay biner into the belay loop only on the harness. Every single biner I've purchased, borrowed, or tried, manages to freqently hang up or snag sideways often on the belay loop. To compound matters, my 8oz petzl sporto harness has a spectra belay loop that seems to snag at least once a belayed pitch. If the leader falls when the biner is sideways, the biner could easily bust. What biners are completely smooth and no edges to hang up? Was it DMM that made a black plastic snap on keeper? Is it any good? Does it weigh a ton? As a sport climber, big falls are a daily occurance, and I'm tired of the biner hanging up when my buddies are hang dogging and then I have to yank the rope to unsnag the biners. It has nothing to do with how I belay as I see it happening to virtually everyone. I suspect that the original belay method is just as safe as the newer belay loop method and that the cross loading on the biner caused by the old method is far less then we think. What locking belay biner should I buy? I've tried, trango, BD, mammut, camp,and petzl.

[catbirdseat]

Don't use a belay biner. Use a standard locking D. Belay biners despite their name, are designed for rappelling. They are wide on one end to accommodate two strands of rope without pinching the keeper loop. It's the wideness that causes the shifting about you experience.

 

In belaying you have one strand. There is no need for an HMS type biner.

 

So try the Petzl Am'D, but don't use it for rappelling.

[Blake]

Hey Jens, I have a friend who uses one of these with a gri-gri or when aid soloing. Works well, the plastic clip is light, and it should solve your problem!

 

 

DMM "Belay Master"

[Argus]

I use one of those. It works well, but has a couple of issues. First, when using an ATC the wire loop hangs far enough down that it hits the plastic and can be annoying. It's annoying to keep opening and closing when you are doing multiple rappels, so I just take it off and put it my pocket. Also, I had the plastic pop off when it was open and lost it. I called DMM and they wanted $7 for a new piece of plastic. I told them they were out of their minds and luckily I found another one on a climb in Red Rocks.

[hafilax]

My beef with the belay master is that you have to lock it to close the plastic. That means you either have to lock it to your harness or leave the plastic thing dangling where it often snags on things and pops off.

 

Otherwise it works.

[G-spotter]

Jens,

 

It is not the biners as much as it is you developed bad biner management habits while belaying the old (wrong) way.

 

Sounds more like you need to work on your biner management.

[snoboy]

Don't use a belay biner. Use a standard locking D. Belay biners despite their name, are designed for rappelling.

 

I think the "flat" profile of the wide end is also a benefit to running a smooth belay. Many belay devices seem to sit nicely there, and I suspect they may be designed to work with a "belay biner."

 

I have and use the DMM Belay Master. It's OK, but a bit annoying having to lock the biner to clip the plastic thingy into place. It would be nice if they modified it to allow you to close it if locked or unlocked, but I think they figure it's an extra safety feature the way it is.

[woodchips]

I've had the same complaint for awhile, but recently started flipping my belay biner around and using the narrow end. So far, this seems to work much better. I've mostly been using my DMM sentinel biner:

 

[woodchips]

Don't use a belay biner. Use a standard locking D. Belay biners despite their name, are designed for rappelling. They are wide on one end to accommodate two strands of rope without pinching the keeper loop. It's the wideness that causes the shifting about you experience.

 

In belaying you have one strand. There is no need for an HMS type biner.

 

So try the Petzl Am'D, but don't use it for rappelling.

 

I haven't really had any problem using the Am'D for rapelling, depsite the fact that it's not a HMS biner. Am I missing something? Seems to work OK for me.

[counterfeitfake]

What is the short-axis strength of a 'biner? Isn't it more than 10 kN? Don't you think when a force around 10 kN was applied to a carabiner attached to your soft belay loop, the 'biner would rotate into the long-axis configuration?

 

If anyone has ever caught a falling leader and had the 'biner remain stuck in the short-axis configuration, I want to hear about it.

[Jens]

Counterfeit:

I have caught someone leader falling with a cross loaded biner, but she weighed less than 100 pounds so it may not be valid and the biner was a huge burly rig.

 

Thanks for the tidbits, I meant to say that I've pretty much used every type of locking caribiner since the switch and I mangae the biner and belay great.

 

I'll try the DMM thing.. does anywhere no where it might be sold in the Seattle area.

[hafilax]

I took a quick look at some lockers and most have a cross load strength of around 7 to 9 kN.

 

I've caught a few gym falls where the biner stayed cross loaded. Mostly when I'm not really paying attention. When it's critical I check it whenever I feed out rope.

[mkporwit]

I'll try the DMM thing.. does anywhere no where it might be sold in the Seattle area.

 

REI should carry them...

[catbirdseat]

I've had the same complaint for awhile, but recently started flipping my belay biner around and using the narrow end. So far, this seems to work much better. I've mostly been using my DMM sentinel biner:

 

I've done the same thing and it helps a lot actually.

[fern]

instead of the DMM Belay Master which is super heavy, you can use any which biner you like and just wrap some tape around the rig. Not so much for multpitch, but for long hangdog belay sessions it does the job cheap easy.

[Wastral]

I have had this problem when using my dads ancient tiny locking biners. Once I got a big locking biner I have not had this problem.

 

Its called rope management in how you thread your belay and which side you thread it so when tension is applied it does not get caught.

 

Yes, others have same problem because like you then have not spent 10 minutes figuring out which side to put the rope through so when one does take a fall their biner/belay loop become tangled.

 

Once you figure it out, at the start of a climb thread it through a couple times to remind yourself on how it is done properly. That way when someone does take a fall and maybe they get hurt you can easily tie off the rope and get out of the belay device and tension.

 

Brian

[summerprophet]

Old chouinard reverse locking biners will not bind up at all, the screwgate is very thin.

 

Unfortunately, they had a tendency to unscrew themselves....... pros and cons.

 

 

 

[Jens]

I agree but I wore out my 1989 vintage Chouinard Locking Pearabiner years ago.

[Ken_p]

Petzl attache skinny side up.

That is all

[andrewbanandrew]

you can make a little biner loop on your belay loop out of tape. it's not load bearing; it just prevents the biner from rotating in the belay loop. easy to do with some tape or a rubber band

[snoboy]

...

Edited August 1, 2008 by snoboy

[hafilax]

Fixed link seems like it might be a good solution. Solves the issue of the DMM.

[hafilax]

It depends on how stiff the BLC wire gate is. They don't say much anywhere. It will be interesting to read a review.

[jmace]

Oh man those Attache have to be the worst, I have seen at least 4 or 5 worn alarmingly thin. I threw two of them off one of my parnters harness.

 

 

[JoshK]

Jens,

 

It is not the biners as much as it is you developed bad biner management habits while belaying the old (wrong) way.

 

Sounds more like you need to work on your biner management.

 

Is biner management learned while spraying on the internet all day? where do I sign up?