Ice axe/tool advice - lost mine the other day!

[Jud]

A friend and I went up the North Face ramp route on Mt. Harvey on Sunday, expecting a more or less straightforward steep snow climb (e.g., see here)

 

We expected portions of the route to be melted out by now, but figured it would be OK...well, we hoped it would be OK. Anyway, to make a long story short, we instead ended up doing some mid/low 5th cramponing up rock, and eventually bailing on the route up high up since (1) we had no idea of the actual route and it was very foggy, and (2) couldn't expect the steep (60*) traverse at the end of the ramp to get on the ridge to the summit to be in good condition (i.e., snow). So, we bailed, lowering down the snow, with downclimbing, and then rapping on a very tiny tree over the rock sections. It was a bit, um, thought-provoking --probably mainly b/c we had *expected* a straightforward snow climb, and got much more than we had bargained for. All in all, though, a good, if longer than expected, day with lots of lessons/practice.

 

The crux of the story. Somewhat before rapping the steep rock section, I had shouldered my straight-shaft normal ice axe...then later went to retrieve something from my pack, stupidly forgetting that the axe was there. Clang clang clang it fell down the steep rock bit, miraculously coming to rest on a ledge about 10 feet down. No problem, I thought, I'll just retrieve it on the rappel. A small rock got dislodged (from me) just after that, hit the axe shaft (of all places on the mountain for it to ping into!!), and down the axe went into a chasm under a snow bridge. It was not retrievable at that point.

 

So --I'm now contemplating buying two axes to replace the one I lost...I'm thinking of buying some slightly bent shaft tools, like old Black Diamond Prophets. From what I understand, I can use the hammer tool like a normal mountaineering ice axe (for self-arrest and self-belay on moderate snow), but can use them together for climbing steeper snow or alpine ice (and water ice). I'm just thinking ahead, since I need a new axe anyway --does it make sense to buy two slightly bent shaft tools so that I can use them that way in the future --one alone as a standard mountaineering axe for moderate stuff, or together for steeper stuff later on?

 

Thanks for any opinions.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Jud

[G-spotter]

Did you know a climber was evacuated off the north face of Harvey with a broken leg a week or two ago after getting hit when some of the remaining patchy snow, avalanched on him?

 

This is not a good time of year to be up there. Save this one for the winter.

 

Now on to your question. If you don't have the money to spare, buy a set of Aztars or Axars or something like that and use the one with the adze as a mountaineering axe instead of buying a separate mountaineering axe. Otherwise, if you have the coin, buy a set of something nice for ice (like quarks) and buy a separate mountaineering axe like the Grivel Airtech or BD Raven.

[Jud]

Shit...I had no idea. Thanks a ton for the info/warning. We were very conscious to only keep to the center of the ramp, away from anything that looked hollow/dodgy, and the snow felt very solid...but still. We were up there in February, I think, a few days after a lot of snow, and the avvy conditions were very bad --a bunch of snow about the size of a wheelbarrow or two slid down on us a little ways up (we had decided not to ascend and were just eating lunch just a little ways up the ramp), and we got the hell out of there after that.

 

Thanks for the axe advice. I have to keep it cheap, going for versatility over tool choice! Limited budget.

 

BTW, where did you hear about the accident? Is there a site where I can read about this? I.e., AAC accident reports? Just so that I can understand how/when/where accidents happen, i.e., to understand better how changing conditions affect things.

[counterfeitfake]

Another option would be to buy an ice axe that works decently on ice, like a BD Venom, and then buy a single real ice tool (probably with a hammer). If you're climbing snow routes with short semi-technical icy sections this could be good. And you can always buy a matching tool later.

[G-spotter]

 

BTW, where did you hear about the accident?

 

It was on CKNW and Global TV, and then it turned out to be a friend of a friend and occasional cc.com poster. Good news is he is safe and out of the hospital on crutches now.

[Jud]

Thanks again for the info. Lesson learned...sobering. I definitely need to learn more about conditions. Admittedly, there were melted out portions that looked very dodgy, but the solid portions, in the center, felt very solid (in fact, it was hard to plunge the ax shaft into sometimes for self-belay, since the snow pack was so solid).

 

Anyway...lesson in caution learned.

[G-spotter]

The snow pack no doubt was solid, but the whole solid pack, when it rests on smoothly tilted bedrock and is lubricated by running water, can move on that interface.

[korup]

Ice tools are *really* marginal for self arresting. You lose a lot of leverage with a short shaft, and a technical pick isn't optimized for it like on a normal mtneering axe. People do it all the time (if you are carrying one anyway, etc etc) but it really is a big compromise.

[Jud]

Ice tools are *really* marginal for self arresting. You lose a lot of leverage with a short shaft, and a technical pick isn't optimized for it like on a normal mtneering axe. People do it all the time (if you are carrying one anyway, etc etc) but it really is a big compromise.

 

I'm not totally clear on this. For example, what if your plan is to ascend a route with fairly steep ice/snow (for example, Mt. Matier's AD Northwest Face face route ( see here , where the climber is using two shorter, and slightly bent (or perhaps straight?) shaft tools on alpine ice of about 60* (?). On the approach to the climb, clearly, you have to travel up much more gently sloped and less technical snow slopes, so a standard, longer mountaineering ice axe would best allow you to walk in "cane" position for balance/self-belay and to self-arrest. So, in short, for a climb like that, would the "ideal" be to bring three tools --the shorter bent (or straight) shaft alpine ice tools (adze/hammer), as well as the longer/standard mountaineering ice axe for the more moderate slopes (for self-belay)?

 

Just so it's clear --I'm not planning to ascend the route in question anytime soon, but I am planning to attempt the more moderate PD route on Mt. Matier, where a standard mountaineering ice axe would be used. However, for steeper/more difficult alpine ice climbs later on (like the AD route above), what would one *typically* bring for the lower moderate sections, as well as technical upper sections --three tools, or just two shorter alpine ice tools (and accept the compromises you mention)?

 

Sorry for all the questions! I have a choice of buying two 50 cm older Black Diamond tools, but it's not clear to me that one of them is going to adequately take the place of my lost 70 cm standard ice axe. In all, I understand the compromises re: self-arrest, but it seems to me that the hardest compromise, with the shorter shafts, would be walking in the "cane" position (piolet canne) and self-belaying on moderate slopes: short shaft means much more bending over in both intances (?). So...does anyone ever carry three? (Two tools, one standard ax)

Edited June 11, 2008 by Jud

[counterfeitfake]

I think most would say that is too much excess weight. So you have to make one of the compromises you mention.

[korup]

No, nobody ever carries three. That's the compromise. For anything steep you are carrying tools, so you just use the adze tool as a std mtneering axe, and suck up the shortcomings.

[Jud]

Thanks...I appreciate the straight opinions/advice. I figured that no one carries three tools, but thought I'd ask. As you can gather, I've got tons of questions in my head

 

Cheers...

[Dane]

Hey Jud, I can relate to your confusion on the "best" set of tools.

 

Use to be a standard set of ice climbing tools might well be a 70cm Chouinard axe and an alpine hammer. Or maybe even just two axes. Bridalveil Falls in Colorado was first done free with a pair of 70cm bamboo axes and is still rated WI6.

 

The current generation of bent shaft tools genenerally leave something to be deisred when you want an "alpine mountaineering tool". Additional length on the the shaft being on of them.

 

No question that the newest tools climb better on technical terrain. But if you are plunging a tool in endless hard snow I'd rather have a longer axe with a straight shaft than 50cm tool with a curved shaft.

 

House and Anderson used one of the newer Grivel mountainering tools with a slight bend in the upper shaft to compliment their more technical Grivel tools on Nanga Parbat.

 

http://www.grivelnorthamerica.com/products.php?gid=1&id=7

 

Looks to be one of the same Grivel axes used with a curved handle hammer of some type in this pic on Gibraltar Ledges of one of the Climbing Rangers.

 

 

http://bp1.blogger.com/_Fgo0YDV4zro/SBYgYQvo5GI/AAAAAAAAAKc/rgv5QhQC13Y/s1600/Tom%2BGib%2BChute.jpg

 

That is some pretty steep snow The tools are older Charlet Mosers that can be had fairly cheep (2nd Ascent in Seattle) and are good tools although a bit heavy by today's standards. And won't be all that useful for self arrest.

 

 

Bottom line? A good mountaineering axe (60 to 70cm) will get you up any ice you find and can a still be long enough to use on steep snow in piolet canne and with the right pick design, self arrest with ease. Matched it with a shorter technical tool (45 to 50cm) you would have a good combo to take on most any route.

 

Many of us end up with a quiver of axes and ice tools for different terrain or as the tools become dated. A 70cm axe still makes sense to me for the right climb (any Rainier route for example). A set of 50cm tools, now matter what design, are for steeper, more technical terrain. One of each, one short and one long, is a good combo to get you up most any mountain.

 

If you keep at it at some point you'll want a set of technical tools. (read 50cm matched pair) At that point check around and buy the most useful tools available. Technical tools change rapidly.....no reason to buy something that is already years out of date.

 

 

ps..none of the pics are mine...thank you to there perspective owners.

 

[Jud]

Thanks, Dane, for the detailed reply...good food for thought for me, lots to think about. I think I'll probably just end up getting a standard ice axe to replace my lost one...I realize how easy it is to "overthink" gear (but at the same time, you do want to have the right things).

 

Your mention of shorter tools reminded me --I'd completely forgotten that last year I picked up a pair of 50cm straight and very old school Grivel Mont Blancs (I think) for cheap. Completely forgot I had them! So it seems like the hammer, paired with a standard axe, would serve me well for any steeper alpine ice routes I'd likely do, as you mentioned.

 

(If waterfall ice were ever in my plans later on, then I suppose I'd get something specialized for that --although I'd be curious to see how the old straight-shaft short Grivel tools I have would feel on waterfall ice. That's what people used to use on some big routes, so presumably they'd be fine.) Funny...completely forgot I'd bought those old tools...tucked away in a closet!

 

Cheers,

Jud

[tvashtarkatena]

The BD Venom has a slightly bent shaft that plunges well, and has a interchangeable pick (standard for self arrest, recurved for self belay). It would probably make the best one tool choice. 60 cm should do it (use a freakin' ski pole for a walking stick...you never really need a 70 cm axe unless you're on very sublimated high altitude knife ridges). Changing out BD picks is easier than most other brands.

 

On the steeper stuff, you need self belay, not self arrest. Go for a tool that will give you a secure, solid stick. The BD Venom is OK. For the same weight, the Petzl Aztarex provides a much more comfy (better knuckle clearance so your hands don't freeze) and secure stick, and the shaft plunges fine if you remove the grip rest.