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dougd

chinese climb Everest with Olympic torch

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dmuja,

 

I strongly suggest that you need to go visit Tibet, China. to see the facts instead of spreading lies/rumors here, for example: The truth is ----- all students in Tibet are taught in both Tibetan and Chinese. all official documents in Tibet are written in both languages too. Tibetans are allowed to study their own language in school.

 

 

Edited by pink

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The third question is: are the Han Chinese people committing cultural

genocides?

 

HI, TRAIN!!

Genocide basically means killing the members of a culture rather than the culture itself, although trying to deprive people of their culture is one of the more wishy-washy tactics sometimes employed by those suspected of harboring genocidal intentions.

 

should the western corporations including McDonald's, KFC and

Addidas that are currently opened on the street of Lasha also be called a

Tibitan culture invasion?

 

I would say so but with different spelling.

 

Indeed, this is a trend of culture co-existence

under the frame of globalization and information explosion, not a so-called

cultural genocide.

 

You should step a little further back from the information explosion. I expect Tibet will be getting flying cars, soon?

 

 

 

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mazegirl, I know many Tibetans in exile personally, I tend to believe what they say as they have no need or desire to lie as the PRC does. And I would love to visit a free Tibet real soon, do you think I could bring a camera and recorder with me?

 

BTW - here are a couple NON PRC links you should check out regarding the history of Tibet.

 

http://www.savetibet.org/tibet/history/beforechinese.php

http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/tibet.html

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mazegirl, I know many Tibetans in exile personally, I tend to believe what they say as they have no need or desire to lie as the PRC does...

 

again, I am not against the Tibetans' right (Who are my sisters and brothers) to choose independence as I am not fond of Everything the Chinese Govt does; but it is not true that all Tibetans desire independence which is being encouraged by the Monk's Class and Extremists and independence movement as supported by western agencies, e.g. CIA.

 

Pls look at what the Tibetan separatists did on 3/14/2008

2485363297_916c2956ed_o.jpg

2485363299_4f814d3e07_o.jpg

 

Compassion? Non-violence?

http://www.quant-media.com/collections/PANEL_DESIGN.pdf

 

 

And I would love to visit a free Tibet real soon, do you think I could bring a camera and recorder with me?

 

Yes, you can. A Canadian tourist in Tibet has taken some most famous photos, he told the truth about the riots by separatists on 3/14/2008

http://kadfly.blogspot.com/2008/03/more-from-lhasa.html

http://kadfly.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html

 

dmuja, Do You Know The True Tibet? here is an article for you to read, it's written by an old Tibetan.

Eyewitnesses to 100 years of Tibet: History instead of conclusion-Cedain Puncog

http://www.quant-media.com/collections/xizang.pdf

 

Good Western or independent sources on Tibet, http://americanmediawatch.tripod.com/id49.htm

Edited by mazegirl

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Do you actually believe all of this or just want us to?

 

I'm personally very glad the communists took over China and educated people like mazegirl - who would have been illiterate prior to Mao.

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mazegirl, since you've been bombarding us with articles/youtube, can you explain away this?

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1350794/posts

 

 

I missed this one. I don't know whether the pic you showed me is a true pic or a fake one, I'd like to ask you for reference and evidence.

 

however, It's totally a lie, the women showed in your pic are Han Chinese according to her name written in the paper board if the pic is true.

 

It writes "murder: Lu Jing Fong", absolutely a Han Chinese Name.

 

 

Edited by mazegirl

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Dear Maze Girl,

 

After traveling to China MANY times I have learned that those who say bad things about China or who criticize her merely do not want China to develop to the dominate world power that she is.

 

The China Government has a long term plan, 100+ years, to bring China up to speed. We westerners can not understand such long term planning. (Not that the rest of the world is going to stand still and wait for China to develop and change over the next 100 years.)

 

Most of the people on this sight do not understand all of the deep issues with China, especially the terrible consequences of Religion. You can not allow the people to openly express their beliefs about God because that would mean the government is not the ultimate authority. They merely think “this is the way we do, it works for us it should work for you”.

 

You tell them girl!

 

Oh, can you please answer just one question for me? Why is my Bible confiscated when my luggage gets search entering China?

 

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Guys, your puerile attempt to discredit me by dismissing me as a Communist/Nationalist/spy is pathetic, and only serves to further demonstrate the height of your ignorance.

 

NONE of my family members including myself, my relatives and my friends are from communist party , none of us ever work for Chinese government. We are the Chinese minority just like the Tibetans.

 

In conclusion please remember that I'm not in agreement with all that the Chinese govt. does or has done in the past and that is why I'm here in Canada.

I love Canada and I'm proud that I'm a Canadian too.

 

Edited by mazegirl

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i just have a couple of questions

 

1)you keep refering to being "the chinese minority" which minority group is this?

 

2) do you climb?

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I love Canada and I'm proud that I'm a Canadian too.

 

So I take it that you likely therefore agree with our liberal democratic idea of self-determination whereby a cultural group has the ability to achieve self-governance? Please comment.

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Dear Maze Girl,

............

Oh, can you please answer just one question for me? Why is my Bible confiscated when my luggage gets search entering China?

 

I don't know your case, I only know that there weren't any problem for my friends to bring Bibles back to China. e.g. my group experienced a backcountry tragedy on March 23,2008, one of my group members Leo died, we gave a bible to his brother when he came here for the settlement, he took the bible with him when came back China without any problem........

 

 

FYI:

http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25836

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Dear Maze Girl,

............

Oh, can you please answer just one question for me? Why is my Bible confiscated when my luggage gets search entering China?

 

I don't know your case, I only know that there weren't any problem for my friends to bring Bibles back to China. e.g. my group experienced a backcountry tragedy on March 23,2008, one of my group members Leo died, we gave a bible to his brother when he came here for the settlement, he took the bible with him when came back China without any problem........

 

 

FYI:

http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25836

 

Only when my luggage gets searched; otherwise I get a free pass through customs.

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mazegirl,

 

Not sure how you reconcile your stated support for Tibetan independence and can then defend chinese policies there with such obvious passion in what is the complete, and seemingly permanent take over of that country.

 

Let's all hope that the chinese never see us as "brothers and sisters" and attempt to treat us accordingly...

 

d

 

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Mazegirl, I am absolutely sure that much of what we seen in our news media is baloney and I'm not at all surprised that the images we see misrepresent the situation as your examples above indicate. However, some of that stuff about how China is such a good steward of Tibetan culture is a little hard to swallow and your "historical" summary that suggests Tibet was never independent of China is flat out wrong, isn't it?

 

My minimal understanding of the history is that the Chinese in part justified their more recent invasion based on a historical empire that existed several centuries ago. I don't belive Tibet has "always" been part of China.

 

I gotta say, though: it is refreshing to see somebody argue in defense of China here even if it does look like much of it is propaganda.

 

Where do you think China has actually done wrong in Tibet, Mazegirl, or has it all been positive?

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Mazegirl,

 

I do not beleive a lot of what you say about Chinese gov intentions and methodologies with regards to Tibet. Please do not refer to me as a racist for disagreeing.

 

I deeply respect your taking this debate to a deeper understanding of our similarities and differnces.

 

 

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In 1653, Qing Emperor offically gave the title Dalai to the head of Gelug Schools of Buddhism in Tibet. Since then any reincarnation aka successor of Dalai has to be approved and confirmed by Chinese central government.

 

In 1954 current Dalai Lama became Deputy Chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress aka the parliament of PRC. SO, if Tibet had been an independent country then, how came a "foreigner" like Dalai could hold such an important position in the parliament of PRC?

 

Here is a booklet to present Western readers with historical facts that have been filtered from them by mainstream Western media. The author made every effort to have all materials used in this booklet referenced, most from Western publication. The author is not saying non-Western publication has no credibility. But since many, if not most, Westerners feel only their publication represent justice and credibility, let’s cater to this irrational preference.

http://www.wangyee.net/comp/Tibet2004.htm

 

This is a film made by the US in 1944 to explain why the USA was helping

China to fight against Japanese invaders. In this film it very clearly

stated that Tibet was part of China. This video tells you a lot about

important historical facts of China. Please at least take a look at the

first part.

 

Another exampl: An USA stamp of 1942 , which shows the Chinese map and Tibet area was part of it.

http://www.junior-philatelists.com/USStampsHistory42.htm

 

This is a video to show that many "Free Tibet" supporter have no idea where

is Tibet! Do they really know what they are talking about when they support

“free Tibet”? The following materials can help the people who are

interested or concerned about Tibet to LEARN more about Tibet before making

simple judgments.

 

The history of Tibet’s belonging to China has been over 700 years and the

USA acknowledged that like the previous example shows. Then why do most

recent western people got an impression that China recently took over Tibet

in the 1950's? When did the "Free Tibet" Champaign started and how?

One major impact was made by USA CIA. The effort to separate Tibet from

China was part of the Cold War. And you can read the following disclosed USA

government history files about their actions here: When the media make you

believe Tibet was recently took over by Chinese, they would not tell you

this history and the things CIA did during the Cold war.

 

http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343.html

Cite:

The cost of the Tibetan Program for FY 1964 can be summarized in approximate

figures as follows:

a. Support of 2100 Tibetan guerrillas based in Nepal--$ 500,000

b. Subsidy to the Dalai Lama--$ 180,000

c. [1 line of source text not declassified] (equipment, transportation,

installation, and operator training costs)--$ 225,000

d. Expenses of covert training site in Colorado--$ 400,000

e. Tibet Houses in New York, Geneva, and [less than 1 line of source text

not declassified] ( 1/2 year )--$ 75,000

f. Black air transportation of Tibetan trainees from Colorado to India--$

185,000

g. Miscellaneous (operating expenses of [less than 1 line of source text not

declassified] equipment and supplies to reconnaissance teams, caching

program, air resupply--not overflights, preparation stages for agent network

in Tibet, agent salaries, etc.)--$ 125,000

h. Educational program for 20 selected junior Tibetan officers-- $ 45,000

Total--$ 1,735,000

 

Diary of Tibet:

Two American tourists ' travel Diary of Tibet. Very informative. Watch and

think.

In total it has 7 10-minute Eps.

The last Ep.

 

This is a recent short film made by an USA Producer about Tibet. It talks

about Tibet's history and politics. Please take a look and think.

At the end it says: study history, not the media. the truth is not to be

found in the television broadcast.

《Tibet:The Truth》

For more information: www.monarex.com

Edited by mazegirl

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Welcome to CC Mazegirl. A bit different from ClubTread, eh?

 

I'm curious about what you think about the policy of self-determination and how it applies in Tibet, Taiwan, Quebec, Hawaii, Kosovo? Do you believe that all people should be able to freely and democratically choose their governance (without loading the dice by having "settlers" shipped in) or does nationalism trump regional desires?

 

It's a complicated question, but it underlines that discussions based on who ruled whom 500 years ago should pretty much irrelevant. I don't see much of that issue addressed in the propaganda - those materials seem to focus much more on ownership. Unsurprising, really.

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The history of Tibet’s belonging to China has been over 700 years and the USA acknowledged that like the previous example shows. Then why do most

recent western people got an impression that China recently took over Tibet in the 1950's? When did the "Free Tibet" Champaign started and how? One major impact was made by USA CIA. The effort to separate Tibet from China was part of the Cold War. And you can read the following disclosed USA government history files about their actions here: When the media make you

believe Tibet was recently took over by Chinese, they would not tell you this history and the things CIA did during the Cold war.

 

You should probably refresh your understanding of 20th Century European history if you are preplexed as to why so many people in North America support the right of a group of people to have self-governance and not be subject to the imposed rule of a larger entity that claims historical "ownership". Self-determination (again, please do some research here) is a notion very fundamental to liberal democracies.

 

The nationalistic sentiment of China having historical claim over Tibet is basically the same rationale Hitler used to justify his control of Europe.

 

This is why no one here can swallow that line of bullshit.

 

Once again, liberal democracies (you live in one) accept the ability of a cultural group to seek their own system of self-rule. This is called the right to free association.

 

Before you express your dismay over people's reactions here, you should probably do some research about the politics and culture of the Western societies you live amongst.

 

 

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jordop, let's air your voice!

 

Free Tibet!

Free Basque!

Free Catalonie!

Free Québec!

Free Corsia!

Free Brittany!

Free Scotland!

Free Walse!

Free Abkhazia!

Free South Ossetia!

Free Pridnestrovie!

Free Serb-dominated Northern Part of Kosovo!

........

 

Edited by mazegirl

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jordop, let's air your voice!

 

Free Tibet!

Free Basque!

Free Catalonie!

Free Québec!

Free Corsia!

Free Brittany!

Free Scotland!

Free Walse!

Free Abkhazia!

Free South Ossetia!

Free Pridnestrovie!

Free Serb-dominated Northern Part of Kosovo!

........

 

Free the world of despotic governments who repress free thought Self-determination.

Edited by sirwoofalot

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jordop, let's air your voice!

 

Free Tibet!

Free Basque!

Free Catalonie!

Free Québec!

Free Corsia!

Free Brittany!

Free Scotland!

Free Walse!

Free Abkhazia!

Free South Ossetia!

Free Pridnestrovie!

Free Serb-dominated Northern Part of Kosovo!

........

 

I think she's got a point there, Jordo. There's a long history of cultural groups agitating for self-rule, but the instances in which the larger state that these groups are embedded in voluntarily accommodated their wishes are few and far between.

 

This isn't directed at Jordo - but I don't think that failing to acknowledge fact that Tibet was a feudal theocracy before the advent of Chinese political control is terribly helpful, either. From the evidence I've seen - the Tibetan grievances are legitimate, their suffering under the Chinese has been sustained and in many cases severe, and I support their desire for greater autonomy. However, any discussion of greater Tibetan autonomy should acknowledge that it's highly unlikely that even the Tibetans would want to restore the kind of society that prevailed in the early 1940s.

 

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I personally think that more autonomy, and more political space for them to preserve their cultural traditions - within the larger Chinese state - is the best that they can realistically hope for. I also think that an approach that embraces violence is the least likely to bring about either. That's just the reality - the more violent the uprisings, the more thoroughly they'll be crushed and the more heavily they'll be subjugated.

 

 

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Welcome to CC Mazegirl. A bit different from ClubTread, eh?

 

I'm curious about what you think about the policy of self-determination and how it applies in Tibet, Taiwan, Quebec, Hawaii, Kosovo? Do you believe that all people should be able to freely and democratically choose their governance (without loading the dice by having "settlers" shipped in) or does nationalism trump regional desires?

 

It's a complicated question, but it underlines that discussions based on who ruled whom 500 years ago should pretty much irrelevant. I don't see much of that issue addressed in the propaganda - those materials seem to focus much more on ownership. Unsurprising, really.

 

I have no problem with the people of Tibet or other countries or provinces choosing independence and choice of governance as long as it is truly the choice of the majority of the people; also that it is approached through peaceful means. As China opens its doors more and more to the world, I believe that a system of democratic election process will evolve and support these issues. Again China closed its doors to the world as a result of many losses in unity from the opium wars, incursion from the outside and from WWII. The cultural revolution has been the bad solution.....Now they are trying to move on. China, Notwithstanding its less than perfect human rights record, is making progress.

 

The entire nation, from high-ranking officials to factory workers, has been working extremely hard to get the country ready for the Olympics. I regard this as the Chinese nation's heartfelt effort to be accepted into the international community. This is a great opportunity for Western nations to use their influence for further improvements in human rights.

 

Instead of embracing such positive changes, though, Western nations have tried to outdo each other in criticizing China. This will only act as a barrier on China's road to democracy. The best way to change China is to engage it, not isolate it.

 

We should refrain from dishing out harsh judgments about a country that broke from Mao's iron grip only three decades ago, a country the Dalai Lama himself once hailed as the only hope for Tibet (he conveniently forgot, of course). A helping hand to create a positive environment for change is much more constructive than a cold shoulder.

 

Let's see some info on so-called "peaceful movement" stated/launched by the Dalai Lama. According to the Dalai Lama previous statement, he supports Bejing Olympic and He doesn't choose independence........But.....

 

Dalai, Your Smiles Charm, Your Actions Harm

 

http://www.tibetanyouthcongress.org/aboutus.html'>http://www.tibetanyouthcongress.org/aboutus.html

4. To struggle for the total independence of Tibet even at the cost of one’s life.

 

http://www.tibetanyouthcongress.org/news/october10_2007a.html

TYC admit that Tibetans Storm Chinese Embassy.

 

Relationship between TYC and the Dalai Lama

http://www.tibetanyouthcongress.org/aboutus.html

1. To dedicate oneself to the task of serving one’s country and people under the guidance of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Spiritual and Temporal Ruler of Tibet.

 

"No Olympic in China Until Tibet is Free"

http://www.tibetanyouthcongress.org/campaign.html

 

http://www.tibetanyouthcongress.org/aboutus.html#organisation

TYC was founded on October 7, 1970 in Dharamsala with His Holiness the Dalai Lama delivering the inaugural address.

 

More info about the Dalai Lama:

 

Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden

 

Dalai "Da-Lie" Lama's Naked Truth Exposed; Re Tibet Violence

 

Tibetan, Han and other 54 ethnics are family. The violent riot in Lasha is instigated by Tibet Separatists who have greatly upset the local public security and threatened the safety of local residents (Including Tibetans, Hans, Mongols and other minorities).

 

Separatists attacked Chinese, say Lhasa tourists

 

By Thomas Bell(from Switzerland)

The young people were in action and the old people were supporting with screaming. Howling like wolves, that's how they supported them....

Anything that looked Chinese was attacked. I saw at least seven to eight Chinese people attacked with stones and fists.

 

Thomas Bell saw one old Han Chinese man rescued from the mob by elderly Tibetan people, and believes the intervention of a Canadian tourist saved another life.

 

John Kenwood, a 19-year-old Canadian, believes he saw a man die. "They were knocking people off motorcycles," he said. "One man was hit several times in the head with a large piece of sidewalk." When his attackers left him he was not moving.

 

Mr Kenwood also saw boxes of stones being supplied to Tibetan throwers.

 

"To me it was like it was planned," he said.

 

 

If people have the rights to let their vioce be heard, it should not be only the Tibetan Separatists'

Edited by mazegirl

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