Jens Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Good luck getting Wildlife dudes out there ! They have no one working weekends as of right now because the State refuses to pay them overtime. No need for the parking pass then! Hurray! The bikers are almost as bad as snowmobilers on the Stuart Glacier, baker summit area, and st. helens summit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frikadeller Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I just read this thread.... Soooooo.... I guess it's not cool for me and my dirt bike friends to ride a Vantage anymore? That place rocks for dirt bikin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Dirt bikes are aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevino Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Theres snowmobilers on stuart glacier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekend_Climberz Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I just read this thread.... Soooooo.... I guess it's not cool for me and my dirt bike friends to ride a Vantage anymore? That place rocks for dirt bikin'. I don't mind, but you do need to do the research and make sure you are staying within the defined boundaries where it is allowed. Just like we have to stay on the trails around the climbing areas to protect the fragile flora, it seems that other user groups should also follow the rules for their sport that have been set for the same purposes. If the Fish and Wildlife folks don't want to police on the weekend, then it is up to us all to make sure we're doing our part. Ignorance is no excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Theres snowmobilers on stuart glacier? I think it was Colin Haley who remarked in a Stuart N Ridge TR a couple years back about watching snomobilers high marking on the Stuart Glacier, they came in over Goat Pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Theres snowmobilers on stuart glacier? I have heard rumors that one almost summitted via the Cascadian Couloir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crack Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 (edited) fuck yeah -that sounds like a fun! Edited March 13, 2008 by Crack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 fuck yeah -that sounds like a fun! Edited by Crack (Today at 07:54 PM) This doesn't really make good sense even after your judicious editing, Crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Some of you act like paragons of environmental virtue when addressing the motorcycle dudes while at the same time you continue to endorse (by drilling or climbing) the grid-bolting of Vantage: a place where almost every route that can't go clean can be top-roped (with perhaps a few judiciously placed compromise anchors, if absolutely necessary) without resorting to the pathetic "climbing" situation that Vantage has become. Ya, the bikes are no good, but take a look at yourselves, too. (And all the garbage is likely not originating solely from the clueless "concert-goers".) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Um Don, Bolts are different than dirt biking or any other activity that trashes the soil where tons of animals hang out. Climbers confine themselves to the cliffs whereas dirtbikers and other folks with ORVs are driving all over the region trashing places where a lot of the animals live. Sure ORV folks need a place to pursue their activity of choice, but they shouldn't be roaming free everywhere and anywhere. You can make the same case about ski areas. There should be places that get developed for a recreational area, but there shouldn't be ski lifts up every mountain. Your obsession with bolts is quite funny. Yes there are stupid sport climbs in lots of places, but placing a bolt in any manner doesn't do much to destroy habitat. climbing unlike dirt biking is low impact, but yes low impact does not equal no impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Raindawg brings up valid points. There are those who are obsessed with bolts on both sides of the arguement. Step back and look at yourselves from outside your climbing world. Bolting is more permanent than the damage caused by the dirtbikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Is Frenchmans coulee really so Wilderness that the whine of the Interstate can not drown out the couple of kidZ having fun burning Fossil Fuels below the cliffs. OMG, motorbikes at Vantage. Please, Gearheads have been using the area on and off for years. Longer than most of you have even climbed out there... Can't we just Share the sandbox. Btw, don't you think Government agencies have better things to do then go drive out there and enforce a law (burning more fossil fuels)? Just some thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 Whether to bolt, or not, is a gray area that can be argued (and is in fact argued) endlessly and without resolution. That is a valid conversation that continues to have its place in the climbing world. Riding motorcycles in a wildlife refuge is not a gray area. It is absolutely, irrefutably, and simply, illegal and destructive to habitat. And we as climbers can choose, if we wish, to take responsiblity to protect the area in which we climb. I have no doubt that the bolting argument is another facet of "protecting the area in which we climb" but I think the nature of that dicussion arises from an ethical standpoint, not and environmental/habitat standpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Um Don, Bolts are different than dirt biking or any other activity that trashes the soil where tons of animals hang out. Climbers confine themselves to the cliffs whereas dirtbikers and other folks with ORVs are driving all over the region trashing places where a lot of the animals live. Sure ORV folks need a place to pursue their activity of choice, but they shouldn't be roaming free everywhere and anywhere. You can make the same case about ski areas. There should be places that get developed for a recreational area, but there shouldn't be ski lifts up every mountain. Your obsession with bolts is quite funny. Yes there are stupid sport climbs in lots of places, but placing a bolt in any manner doesn't do much to destroy habitat. climbing unlike dirt biking is low impact, but yes low impact does not equal no impact. I'm not condoning habitat destruction at all. I like most animals more than I like most climbers. I just find it ironic that climbers are doing there own form of trashing the landscape while commenting on the more dramatic activities taking place nearby (dirt bikes). As climbers, they should be especially aware of their own impact, and a concern for the greater environment should also be a requirement. "Feck"...you've been around long enough to know what Vantage was like before the vertical metallic highways attracted the clip-drawed masses...it was a much more natural experience, at least on the rock. It's changed, and I'd say not for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0lson Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Is Frenchmans coulee really so Wilderness that the whine of the Interstate can not drown out the couple of kidZ having fun burning Fossil Fuels below the cliffs. OMG, motorbikes at Vantage. I think that the point that they are getting at is that the motorbikes are in an area they are not supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I remember the good old days when climbers were getting ticketed for doing the same thing. There was even the guys who tried to escape the Sheriff in a VW bus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Sunshine Wall and Feathers areas are trashed. Bolts are probably the indirect cause. They have brought hoardes to the area that has beat it down and, with the exception of a few hardy pigeons and aone or two dying sage bushes, cleansed it of non-human life. That sucks sorta. The bright side may be that the concentration of routes there will draw the crowds to one (now "hardened") site. Motorbikes are analogous. As noted, there are plenty of other ares close by for the bikes to ride and have fun. Respecting a wildlife sanctuary is the least they can do, and should do. The desert is a fragile ecosystem. If the numbers of bikers get big, or the few just get more regular, they'll destroy a lot more of the ecosystem than climbers have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 A motor bike riden off trail has the destructive force of many hundreds of pairs of boots. They are really bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 (edited) I think the deal is that the coulee floor is not yet trashed. So let's keep it that way. The places that are already trashed can remain trashed. Edited March 13, 2008 by Gary_Yngve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good2Go Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Whether to bolt, or not, is a gray area that can be argued (and is in fact argued) endlessly and without resolution. That is a valid conversation that continues to have its place in the climbing world. Riding motorcycles in a wildlife refuge is not a gray area. It is absolutely, irrefutably, and simply, illegal and destructive to habitat. And we as climbers can choose, if we wish, to take responsiblity to protect the area in which we climb. I have no doubt that the bolting argument is another facet of "protecting the area in which we climb" but I think the nature of that dicussion arises from an ethical standpoint, not and environmental/habitat standpoint. Aren't you being just a touch harsh in your approach G-boy? The dirt bike and sledding communities are well aware of the negative perception many people have about their sports. (Full disclosure, I'm guilty on both counts.) And, the overwhelming majority of users want to (and do) comply with the law. For example, I sled in the legal portions of the Teanaway and Salmon la Sac valley pretty much weekly during the winter (mostly, but not always, to get access to bc skiing terrain) and I also ride my dirt bike frequently on legal singletrack in the same areas in the summer and I can't recall ever seeing anyone intentionally violating a wilderness boundary up there. Not saying it never happens, but it's definitely not the norm. I strongly suspect that the folks you saw were either unaware of the trespass (especially if there is a legal riding area immediately adjacent) or they are simply a-holes acting as individuals, not as representatives of the greater dirt bike community. You mention "taking responsibility to protect the area in which we climb." I can relate to that, but I don't agree that the right thing to do is to immediately dial 911. If you could hit them with a frisbee, couldn't you have at least made an attempt to talk with them? That's what I would have done. And, if you'd really like to make an impact, I suggest you spearhead an effort to put some signs up where the private land meets the wildlife refuge so that it's clear that the area is prohibited. (There are lots of existing trails in that basin that might lead a person to think it's ok to ride there.) I'm not saying it's your responsibility to do that, but it seems a whole lot more positive then encouraging the CC community to become a bunch of f'ing chivatos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Talk about environmental degradation, just look at all those bolts, what a mess! No, I don't mean the asphalt. No, ignore the chain link. The rock work is natural right? No, don't look at the trail. It's all about what a mess those bolts make! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted March 14, 2008 Author Share Posted March 14, 2008 Aren't you being just a touch harsh in your approach G-boy? The dirt bike and sledding communities are well aware of the negative perception many people have about their sports. (Full disclosure, I'm guilty on both counts.) And, the overwhelming majority of users want to (and do) comply with the law. For example, I sled in the legal portions of the Teanaway and Salmon la Sac valley pretty much weekly during the winter (mostly, but not always, to get access to bc skiing terrain) and I also ride my dirt bike frequently on legal singletrack in the same areas in the summer and I can't recall ever seeing anyone intentionally violating a wilderness boundary up there. Not saying it never happens, but it's definitely not the norm. I strongly suspect that the folks you saw were either unaware of the trespass (especially if there is a legal riding area immediately adjacent) or they are simply a-holes acting as individuals, not as representatives of the greater dirt bike community. You mention "taking responsibility to protect the area in which we climb." I can relate to that, but I don't agree that the right thing to do is to immediately dial 911. If you could hit them with a frisbee, couldn't you have at least made an attempt to talk with them? That's what I would have done. And, if you'd really like to make an impact, I suggest you spearhead an effort to put some signs up where the private land meets the wildlife refuge so that it's clear that the area is prohibited. (There are lots of existing trails in that basin that might lead a person to think it's ok to ride there.) I'm not saying it's your responsibility to do that, but it seems a whole lot more positive then encouraging the CC community to become a bunch of f'ing chivatos. Hey Good to Go, Thanks for the perspective and I appreciate your points. Allow me to respond to a few of your comments and questions. 1) I don't see how they could have been unaware of the trespass as there are in fact signs posted at the point where the road meets the trailhead where they came from. 2) As for speaking to them, they were racing by at full, loud speed about a football field away. Impossible to speak to them. 3) However, when done climbing for the day, I did drive down the road with the intent to speak with them and they had already left. That's when I saw the signs posted. 4) Even if they were ignorant of the rules for whatever reason, that does not entitle them to do something as destructive as what they did. 5) So while I may be a little bit harsh, perhaps you will consider the possibility that you are being a little bit lenient. 6) I think more signage is a fine idea but the existing signage didn't work -- not sure why these particular riders would respond differently to MORE signage. Perhaps that is up to the land use manager to determine, as is his job. 7) I don't know what f'ing chivatos are but if you want to perceive my post as encouraging the community to be that, you may do so. What I want is for the Coulee not to have motor bikes tearing it up. If that makes me a chivato, then I will happily be one. I think it's great that you're a member of the biking community who follows the rules, and I appreciate your perpective. But I disagree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Riding motorcycles in a wildlife refuge is not a gray area. It is absolutely, irrefutably, and simply, illegal and destructive to habitat. And we as climbers can choose, if we wish, to take responsiblity to protect the area in which we climb. Hear, hear. The issue here is the bikes in the Coulee, nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 7) I don't know what f'ing chivatos are but if you want to perceive my post as encouraging the community to be that, you may do so. Me too. chivato I'm your huckleberry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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