RuMR Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 you know...i read this stuff about pets and their owners, and then i walk past a bum who hasn't eaten a decent meal in awhile and all i can think is...holy fuck, there's some skewed importance out there...said owners would probably cruise by that very human being without a second thought... Not to say i'm heartless, but i think spending inordinate amounts of $$$ to "artificially" extend an animal's life is stupid. THey have finite lives that are shorter than ours and i think DeC, while heartwrenching, made the right decision to just end the suffering quickly and with the dog knowing him as the last thing before he moved on. Personally, Minx, i think that your posing this question is your answer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 rumr - you do have a point but i feel an obligation to take care of any animal that i've assumed responsibility for. i'm trying to figure out where those limits are. i'm not sure that any sum of money i have spent on my vet bills would change a homeless person's situation in the long term. it would however change many people's and it is a valid consideration. should we not have pets? i wouldn't even consider doing this again, i have reason to believe that his quality of life will be good after this. if its not, i won't put him through this again. however, he was a few dollars from not getting treated. DeC--your pets are lucky to have you. Pink, you're an idiot but that song cracks me up. Port/Hafilax-- i know lots of folks that feel the same way. part of my mind is like that when it comes to the pets. i always said their was a $500 limit on house pets. i was shocked how quickly i blew right past that w/o thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirp Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Animals dont choose or have the chance to create or change their destiny, alot of those "homeless" folks have made a conscious choice. I donate to valid causes to assist the homeless population, but I come across enough of them that choose to mooch the system and not take responsibility for themselves. I will help an animal any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 but at what price will you help an animal? I didn't say ignore it, but come on, a 15 year old dog is pretty damn old for a canine. And spending several thousand dollars to extend its life by a year or two is pointless...why don't you donate said funds if you have them to spare to charity in the name of Good Buddy or whatever you call your pet... Regarding homelessness, there are very few that find themselves in that predicament that didn't have some sort of fucked up start to get there. And i can extrapolate to folks that happened to be born on the wrong continent (say like maybe Darfur, Africa)? I recognize the emotional attachment that owners have to pets and that it gets translated to that "he's my little buddy and my responsibility" and that's fine...just recognize that what you are talking about is NOT a person and move on accordingly... AND YEAH, I EAT MEAT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 but at what price will you help an animal? I didn't say ignore it, but come on, a 15 year old dog is pretty damn old for a canine. And spending several thousand dollars to extend its life by a year or two is pointless... So would it be pointless to treat an 87 yr old for cancer, just because they are pretty darn old for a human? ...just recognize that what you are talking about is NOT a person and move on accordingly... Some people do believe that any living being is equal (animal, human, plant, insect). In that case, I would take care of my cat with as much care as my 87 yr old grandma when ill. The process of the beings death is vital to its rebirth (not reincarnation). So, bringing your ill pet to the vet, hearing there is no hope, and pts immediately may not allow for a good death/good rebirth. Read the Tibetan Book of the Dead (or Tibetan Book of Living and Dying) for more information on the subject. In some cases, the above scenerio might be the best. I truley believe each situation is unique. There are definately those who stay too attached and have a harder time letting go. I struggle daily with my situation and whether its my cats spirit and will to continue in this life right now OR my attachment to her being in my life. What I do know is if I had her pts immediately (my vets advice) she would have missed out on lots of playing, good food, brushing, bird-watching, snaffle chasing, and catnip highs. Her overall quality of life seems to outweigh the current complications/treatment for her condition. I personally dont regret one thing I have done to help my cat - despite her being near 16yrs old. I would have regretted NOT doing something and wondering. And, yes, I do believe in another life she did or would have done the same for me - the best she could! Thats just my belief. I really do wish I could see the life of an animal as black and white as some. Sure would be less emotion for me to go through! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Some people do believe that any living being is equal (animal, human, plant, insect). In that case, I would take care of my cat with as much care as my 87 yr old grandma when ill. In which case, you may be taking advantage of your cat's inability to execute a Living Will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 i had to execute a DNR for my cat at the vet hospital. that seemed crazy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 but at what price will you help an animal? I didn't say ignore it, but come on, a 15 year old dog is pretty damn old for a canine. And spending several thousand dollars to extend its life by a year or two is pointless... So would it be pointless to treat an 87 yr old for cancer, just because they are pretty darn old for a human? ...just recognize that what you are talking about is NOT a person and move on accordingly... Some people do believe that any living being is equal (animal, human, plant, insect). In that case, I would take care of my cat with as much care as my 87 yr old grandma when ill. The process of the beings death is vital to its rebirth (not reincarnation). So, bringing your ill pet to the vet, hearing there is no hope, and pts immediately may not allow for a good death/good rebirth. Read the Tibetan Book of the Dead (or Tibetan Book of Living and Dying) for more information on the subject. In some cases, the above scenerio might be the best. I truley believe each situation is unique. There are definately those who stay too attached and have a harder time letting go. I struggle daily with my situation and whether its my cats spirit and will to continue in this life right now OR my attachment to her being in my life. What I do know is if I had her pts immediately (my vets advice) she would have missed out on lots of playing, good food, brushing, bird-watching, snaffle chasing, and catnip highs. Her overall quality of life seems to outweigh the current complications/treatment for her condition. I personally dont regret one thing I have done to help my cat - despite her being near 16yrs old. I would have regretted NOT doing something and wondering. And, yes, I do believe in another life she did or would have done the same for me - the best she could! Thats just my belief. I really do wish I could see the life of an animal as black and white as some. Sure would be less emotion for me to go through! carolyn, to me your first point is moot as i do not hold that animal life is equivalent to human life. If you feel that your cat is equivalent to your mother or grandmother, well, what can i say??? My guess is that you do not have children, they do a lot to "recalibrate" exactly what true value is. But to each their own... The rest, well, lets just say that we have philosophical differences... DeC to you man...you seem to have a firm grasp on nature and cycles... Minx...that's crazy! A DNR??? too stupid to comment on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 one last thing is that its our society that we live in that affords us the "luxury" (which i would deem waste) of uber-care for pets. Just recognize that we are talking about LUXURY and not necessity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 but at what price will you help an animal? I didn't say ignore it, but come on, a 15 year old dog is pretty damn old for a canine. And spending several thousand dollars to extend its life by a year or two is pointless... So would it be pointless to treat an 87 yr old for cancer, just because they are pretty darn old for a human? ...just recognize that what you are talking about is NOT a person and move on accordingly... Some people do believe that any living being is equal (animal, human, plant, insect). In that case, I would take care of my cat with as much care as my 87 yr old grandma when ill. The process of the beings death is vital to its rebirth (not reincarnation). So, bringing your ill pet to the vet, hearing there is no hope, and pts immediately may not allow for a good death/good rebirth. Read the Tibetan Book of the Dead (or Tibetan Book of Living and Dying) for more information on the subject. In some cases, the above scenerio might be the best. I truley believe each situation is unique. There are definately those who stay too attached and have a harder time letting go. I struggle daily with my situation and whether its my cats spirit and will to continue in this life right now OR my attachment to her being in my life. What I do know is if I had her pts immediately (my vets advice) she would have missed out on lots of playing, good food, brushing, bird-watching, snaffle chasing, and catnip highs. Her overall quality of life seems to outweigh the current complications/treatment for her condition. I personally dont regret one thing I have done to help my cat - despite her being near 16yrs old. I would have regretted NOT doing something and wondering. And, yes, I do believe in another life she did or would have done the same for me - the best she could! Thats just my belief. I really do wish I could see the life of an animal as black and white as some. Sure would be less emotion for me to go through! carolyn, to me your first point is moot as i do not hold that animal life is equivalent to human life. If you feel that your cat is equivalent to your mother or grandmother, well, what can i say??? My guess is that you do not have children, they do a lot to "recalibrate" exactly what true value is. But to each their own... The rest, well, lets just say that we have philosophical differences... DeC to you man...you seem to have a firm grasp on nature and cycles... Minx...that's crazy! A DNR??? too stupid to comment on... much of my care for my pets changed after i had kids. before i had kids my kitty's were my family. after thing one and thing two were born my animals became animals and my children were my babies. with limited funds i realized i was more obligated to my children. that didn't stop me from taking care of my pets or loving them. it just changed my priorites. a large part of that was the fact that at the time i had VERY limited funds. right now i have a cat that has grand mal seizures if i take him to the vet. He is mildly diabetic and has some urinary issues. he is 13 now. i am stunned he has lived this long. he is getting really grumpy in his old age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 hmmm...that is what i meant by "recalibrate" muffy! Growing up, my dog meant the world to me...i didn't realize how small my world actually was until my real babies got here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 one question for Carolyn...do you think that extraordinary efforts to extend a life unnaturally are right? Human or animal? There is much to be said for recognizing dying for what it is and not fighting it inappropriately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 i was OK w/the DNR cuz i knew that i wouldn't rack up another $2K and keep the kitty miserable and then end up putting him to sleep after they finally got hold of me or some craziness. but it did seem odd rumr--you're right, it is luxury spending the same as climbing gear or the extra car. after having had the chance to travel a bit to "developing" parts of the world, i realize how much of my life is a luxury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 i was OK w/the DNR cuz i knew that i wouldn't rack up another $2K and keep the kitty miserable and then end up putting him to sleep after they finally got hold of me or some craziness. but it did seem odd rumr--you're right, it is luxury spending the same as climbing gear or the extra car. after having had the chance to travel a bit to "developing" parts of the world, i realize how much of my life is a luxury. IMHO thats why we work hard. no reason to feel guilty about spending our hard earned cash any where we see fit (i don't feel bad about not giving money to people spare changing.... i would rather give my time and money in different ways, and i do.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 vet school joke: First-year students at Texas A&M's Vet school were receiving their first anatomy class, with a real dead cow. They all gathered around the surgery table with the body covered with a white sheet. The professor started the class by telling them, "In Veterinary Medicine it is necessary to have two important qualities as a doctor: The first is that you not be disgusted by anything involving the animal body." For an example, the Professor pulled back the sheet, stuck his finger in the butt of the dead cow, withdrew it and stuck it in his mouth. "Go ahead and do the same thing," he told his students. The students freaked out, hesitated for several minutes. But eventually took turns sticking a finger in the anal opening of the dead cow and sucking on it. When everyone finished, the Professor looked at them and said, "The second most important quality is observation. I stuck in my middle finger and sucked on my index finger. Now learn to pay attention." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 i don't think it's even relevent to talk about "the homeless" in this topic. you could make the same argument about how much we all spend on gear, vacations, our cars, or other luxury items and there are still homeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 yes kk...that is my exact point. Pets are LUXURY anyway you slice it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 yes kk...that is my exact point. Pets are LUXURY anyway you slice it... but they are not things, they are living, so I can see how people will be willing to go farther for them, especially considering the cost of "things" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 that is true...everyone has their own line and i dearly loved each and every one of the pets i had and i missed them...BUT i drew the line a little closer than where Minx and Carolyn have drawn it...I am, after all, only answering Minx's original question of "how far do you go for YOUR pet?" and also explaining my rationale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 But to each their own... The rest, well, lets just say that we have philosophical differences... well said and the difference is respected. I dont see how you or others think of the subject as right or wrong. Nor do I see myself as right or wrong. Its just a matter of beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 that is put well...it is not right or wrong or black and white... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 one question for Carolyn...do you think that extraordinary efforts to extend a life unnaturally are right? Human or animal? There is much to be said for recognizing dying for what it is and not fighting it inappropriately. Thats tough. As I stated earlier, I think each situation is unique so I dont think there is one blanket answer. It makes me think back to this little boy I took care of for about 6-7yrs. He had a degenerative/fatal disease with no cure. I dont think anyone would have a child, hear his/her life expectancy would be in the teens and likely suffer quite a bit and kill the child because of the prognosis (which is what we do to animals). What you do, and what the parents and myself did was help him have the highest quality of life possible and love him. Eric spent the last month of his life puzzling everyone. The nurses and drs didnt understand how his respiratory rate could be so low and continue living. I spent many nights with him sandwiched between me and mom while we took turns counting his breathing and hold our breaths when he would stop. He was not put on any machines and his liquids/nutrition were kept at a minimum to keep him as comfortable as possible near the end. He was on serious pain medication as well. I was there when he took his last breath and watched the dr/coroner take him from his home for the last time. I guess to me,the process he went through,no matter how painful for all of us was very natural. It would have been selfish to keep him alive through machines (if that would even be possible). Yet after seeing his parents have so much difficulty going through the process of accepting the anticipated death, I can completely understand why some might fight and do everything just to make sure their loved one has a heart beat, even if they will never be coherent. Im probably not addressing your question. And if I am, its in quite a round about way. Sorry. In relation to pets, I see it similar to Eric. Do what YOU CAN and feel is in the best interest of the being. Give them the highest quality of life and love them until they are ready to move on. Each owner will have a different level of values and commitment, thus making different decisions than some. Neither I believe is right or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I might also note, I struggle with how appropriate it is with my cats situation...but.. Suffering can be considered a way to get rid of negative karma from previous lives. Who am I to decide not to let my cat experience the natural process of dying and give her the opportunity to release some of that negative karma for her rebirth. Then again, is allowing the animal to suffer producing negative karma for me? I dont have the answers. I dont even know if I truly believe any of it. The most important thing Im learning is to act with best intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 one question for Carolyn...do you think that extraordinary efforts to extend a life unnaturally are right? Human or animal? There is much to be said for recognizing dying for what it is and not fighting it inappropriately. Thats tough. As I stated earlier, I think each situation is unique so I dont think there is one blanket answer. It makes me think back to this little boy I took care of for about 6-7yrs. He had a degenerative/fatal disease with no cure. I dont think anyone would have a child, hear his/her life expectancy would be in the teens and likely suffer quite a bit and kill the child because of the prognosis (which is what we do to animals). What you do, and what the parents and myself did was help him have the highest quality of life possible and love him. Eric spent the last month of his life puzzling everyone. The nurses and drs didnt understand how his respiratory rate could be so low and continue living. I spent many nights with him sandwiched between me and mom while we took turns counting his breathing and hold our breaths when he would stop. He was not put on any machines and his liquids/nutrition were kept at a minimum to keep him as comfortable as possible near the end. He was on serious pain medication as well. I was there when he took his last breath and watched the dr/coroner take him from his home for the last time. I guess to me,the process he went through,no matter how painful for all of us was very natural. It would have been selfish to keep him alive through machines (if that would even be possible). Yet after seeing his parents have so much difficulty going through the process of accepting the anticipated death, I can completely understand why some might fight and do everything just to make sure their loved one has a heart beat, even if they will never be coherent. Im probably not addressing your question. And if I am, its in quite a round about way. Sorry. In relation to pets, I see it similar to Eric. Do what YOU CAN and feel is in the best interest of the being. Give them the highest quality of life and love them until they are ready to move on. Each owner will have a different level of values and commitment, thus making different decisions than some. Neither I believe is right or wrong. that was a beautiful story C thank you for sharing it. *hugs* I think you hit the nail on the head with the, we all do the best we can and there is no "right or wrong" only right or left. I don't think we are judged by our actions as much as we are judged by the contents of our hearts. if you ask me your karma is in great shape :kisss: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 oscar is not responding as well as we hoped yesterday. we've got a plan of action. it may or may not work for him. i am desperately hoping that it does. i do feel good about spending the money to treat the crisis and evaluate the underlying problems fully. now we can move forward with the best plan possible, keep oscar comfortable during the process. if we're lucky one of the insulins will work to control his sugar levels. if not, he won't suffer while we're trying different things. he can't go on indefinitely like this but i'll be OK with whatever the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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