G-spotter Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 You can Love and Fear someone, or you can Hate in Fear someone, or you can fear a person with out either love or hate. I can't fear what I love. And fear leads to hate of what you fear so if you fear something now but don't hate it, eventually you will. Parents. When you did something wrong as a child your feared your parents, especially after they found out. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirwoofalot Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 You can Love and Fear someone, or you can Hate in Fear someone, or you can fear a person with out either love or hate. I can't fear what I love. And fear leads to hate of what you fear so if you fear something now but don't hate it, eventually you will. Parents. When you did something wrong as a child your feared your parents, especially after they found out. Nope. so, what are you the perfect angel? or the undisciplined child? I can say it is normal for a child for fear their parents and yet love them at the same time, and still never have the fear turn into hate. If you never got to expierence that then I do feel sorry for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONK Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Love to Hate Hate to Love Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 You're the one I feel sorry for - you and your kids. I am glad I'm not related to you. A child should not fear their parents. Do you beat yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Fear of losing computer prviledges, fear of losing TV priviledges, fear of not being complimented. These are all very real fears for a child and neccessary tools to teach a child about consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirwoofalot Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) You're the one I feel sorry for - you and your kids. I am glad I'm not related to you. A child should not fear their parents. Do you beat yours? To be sure my children do know there are consequences for their actions. When they were younger I had to impose those consequences, as they are getting older the consequences are much more self evident. When they do wrong that needs to be corrects, yes, they absolutely fear me and my coming home. After it is all over I am the one they run to for a hug. When they get hurt by others it is me who they come to. I, too, feared my parents and loved them at the same time. My point is fear and love can go together, they do not have to be separated. An abusive Father that is only feared, and where consequences are handed out indiscriminately and no love in the house; yes that situation is where fear leads to hate; BUT IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THAT WAY. Fear and love can coexist. Edited February 8, 2008 by sirwoofalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Those are not fears. Don't quibble. Like if I say "Bug, I'm afraid I already ate the last piece of pie, and there's none for you." it doesn't mean I'm scared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 You're the one I feel sorry for - you and your kids. I am glad I'm not related to you. A child should not fear their parents. Do you beat yours? I totally disagree. I do not beat my children. I have never had to. I think well behaved children have a healthy respect/fear of their parents. It is like fearing the police. my boys understand it is never my intention to harm them. However it is my intention to teach them that every action has a consequence. Generally there is a natural consequence and then their is a mom consequence. Usually that means they are grounded from something they really like. My boys understand with out a shadow of a doubt that mom is a supernatural being who will figure out if they are lying or have done something wrong. I have eyes in the back of my head and i can read minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirwoofalot Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) You're the one I feel sorry for - you and your kids. I am glad I'm not related to you. A child should not fear their parents. Do you beat yours? I totally disagree. I do not beat my children. I have never had to. I think well behaved children have a healthy respect/fear of their parents. It is like fearing the police. my boys understand it is never my intention to harm them. However it is my intention to teach them that every action has a consequence. Generally there is a natural consequence and then their is a mom consequence. Usually that means they are grounded from something they really like. My boys understand with out a shadow of a doubt that mom is a supernatural being who will figure out if they are lying or have done something wrong. I have eyes in the back of my head and i can read minds. Dang me, don’t you know it! My mother knew when I was lying before I ever lied. The worst I ever felt was after my first year at UW when I was about to go on academic probation. I was talking to my Mother and she just said, “That’s ok, dear, we know you are doing your best.” OUCH! How did she know I was goofing off all of the time? Edited February 8, 2008 by sirwoofalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 You're the one I feel sorry for - you and your kids. I am glad I'm not related to you. A child should not fear their parents. Do you beat yours? I totally disagree. I do not beat my children. I have never had to. I think well behaved children have a healthy respect/fear of their parents. It is like fearing the police. my boys understand it is never my intention to harm them. However it is my intention to teach them that every action has a consequence. Generally there is a natural consequence and then their is a mom consequence. Usually that means they are grounded from something they really like. My boys understand with out a shadow of a doubt that mom is a supernatural being who will figure out if they are lying or have done something wrong. I have eyes in the back of my head and i can read minds. Dang me, don’t you know it! My mother knew when I was lying before I ever lied. The worst I ever felt was after my first year at UW when I was about to go on academic probation. I was talking to my Mother and she just said, “That’s ok, dear, we know you are doing your best.” OUCH! How did she know I was goofing off all of the time? we are super natural Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 uh, didn't machiavelli answer that one a long time ago? "here the question arises; whether it is better to be loved than feared or feared than loved. the answer is that it would be desirable to be both but, since that is difficult, it is much safter to be feared than loved...for on men this observation must be made: they are ungrateful, fickle and deceitful...men have less hesititation in offending a man who is loved than one who is feared, for love is held by a bond of obligation which, as men are wicked, is broken whenever personal advantage suggests it, but fear is accompanied by the dread of punishment which never relaxes" I'd recommend a strong dose of Machiavelli, LaRochefoucuald, Lord Chesterfield, and Dale Carnegie to anyone under 20. Is vs Ought. Tough pill to swallow, but IMO happiness and optimism come easier when you know how things actually work, and accommodate your expectations to those realities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 defeatist Question Authority Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Easy, Hate. You can choose to love someone you hate, but you can never hate someone you love. I have only ever hated a person whom I had, at one time, loved. "ZARA. Thou shalt die. OSM. I thank you. ZARA. Thou ly'st; for now I know for whom thou'dst live. OSM. Then you may know for whom I'd die. ZARA. Hell! Hell! Yet I'll be calm- Dark and unknown Betrayer! But now the Dawn begins, and the slow Hand Of Fate is stretch'd to draw the Veil, and leave Thee bare, the naked Mark of Publick View. OSM. You may be still deceiv'd; 'tis in my Pow'r. ZARA. Ha! Who waits there? - Enter PEREZ. - As you'll answer it, take heed This Slave commit no Violence upon Himself. I've been deceiv'd. The Publick Safety Requires he should be more confin'd; and none, No not the Princes self, permitted to Confer with him. I'll quit you to the King. Vile and ingrate! too late thou shalt repent The base Injustice thou hast done my Love: Yes, thou shalt know, spite of thy past Distress, And all those Ills which thou so long hast mourn'd; Heav'n has no Rage, like Love to Hatred turn'd, Nor Hell a Fury, like a Woman scorn'd" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 defeatist Question Authority If my closest friends or family members betrayed me, I'd be devastated. The further people get from that circle, the lower my expectations of them. People I work with are often about four or five concentric circles away from that level, and while I don't expect them to be duplicitous, self-serving, etc - if they reveal themselves to be any of the above, it's par for the course. It's amazing how little it takes for some people to compromise themselves. Best be aware of that from the get-go, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 "Young men are apt to think themselves wise enough, as drunken men are apt to think themselves sober enough." Lord Chesterfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I agree with your assessment only as it pertains to: 1) politicians 2) lawyers 3) HR 4) people in sales 5) people in marketing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 uh, didn't machiavelli answer that one a long time ago? "here the question arises; whether it is better to be loved than feared or feared than loved. the answer is that it would be desirable to be both but, since that is difficult, it is much safter to be feared than loved...for on men this observation must be made: they are ungrateful, fickle and deceitful...men have less hesititation in offending a man who is loved than one who is feared, for love is held by a bond of obligation which, as men are wicked, is broken whenever personal advantage suggests it, but fear is accompanied by the dread of punishment which never relaxes" I'd recommend a strong dose of Machiavelli, LaRochefoucuald, Lord Chesterfield, and Dale Carnegie to anyone under 20. Is vs Ought. Tough pill to swallow, but IMO happiness and optimism come easier when you know how things actually work, and accommodate your expectations to those realities. i.e. strive to a machiavellian ideal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 or, another way of saying don't treat others as you would want them to treat you, but instead just be the most effective you can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Ver', no doveryaj. Trust but verify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Nope. Just recognize that if you want to achieve something good, help others, etc that these may obstacles that you have to overcome. Anyone who works in fundraising for charities, for example, probably recognizes the role that vanity, flattery, egotism, etc play in motivating people to participate in or donate to causes that are self-evidently worthwhile (in addition to the role that good and noble sentiments play). I don't think that folks who incorporate these realities into their approach to raising money or support for good causes are necessarily cynical or defeatist for doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Ver', no doveryaj. Trust but verify thats not very machiavellian! you're ruining christmas with your small minded idealist thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Nope. Just recognize that if you want to achieve something good, help others, etc that these may obstacles that you have to overcome. Anyone who works in fundraising for charities, for example, probably recognizes the role that vanity, flattery, egotism, etc play in motivating people to participate in or donate to causes that are self-evidently worthwhile (in addition to the role that good and noble sentiments play). I don't think that folks who incorporate these realities into their approach to raising money or support for good causes are necessarily cynical or defeatist for doing so. so arm yourself to fight fire with fire, or nukes if necessary. its true that you aren't going to beat rove, for instance, by "out nicing" him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZimZam Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I chose manslaughter If loving you is wrong. I don't want to be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 people are fundamentally good love is contagious, so are smiles practice acts of random kindness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I agree with your assessment only as it pertains to: 1) politicians 2) lawyers 3) HR 4) people in sales 5) people in marketing Largely agree - but I think you'll find the same traits evince themselves in any competitive enterprise. Science, medicine, etc, etc, etc have competitive pressures that can also bring out the worst in people who are largely motivated by noble sentiments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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