wfinley Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Sorry - I didn't mean to edit your quote. I hate the loss of life as well; I just question what good will come out of increased funding and calls to add warnings and force retailers to comply with some sort of approval / education process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I think we are in conditions that overall are "Considerable". In pockets they are extreme. The avy conditions since the storm about a month ago have been really high compared to most years. Usually, we get a big thaw or rain or something that clears out the bad layers within a couple weeks. This year, the metal roof is about 1 foot from the ground and buried under more and more otherwise stable layers. They are structurally stable but have no foundation. It holds for a long time but when it goes, it goes deep and big. Word- This is the bottom line folks. Sometimes it's just going to be a big, bad year, this is that year and people are going to die. I just hope it's not to many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I just question what good will come out of increased funding and calls to add warnings and force retailers to comply with some sort of approval / education process. I also question the efficiency of increasing funding but it's worthwhile to point out that doubling the budget for all of the avalanche centers in the US would cost a couple million bucks a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) Better reporting on snow conditions might help, though the info is all there if you know where to look. The weather dude could at least post links to the avalanche forecast web site on a regular basis. And while were at it, why not get the media to explain global warming in depth and report on ways to end senseless warfare and reduce poverty and . . . and . . . Edited January 8, 2008 by Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 You know those buoys that have been placed throughout the oceans loaded with various sensors that transmit data remotely to data collection centers stationed throughout the world? Well, same thing, but in the mountains. Long, vertical, highly sensitive poles like...no, more sensitive than that...are placed throughout the mountains that collect data (wind speed/direction, snow depth, temperature, density, etc.) and send their info to centers for analysis and report. We pay for it through sales of cc.com t-shirts, out-of-state Tauntaun/Snaffle combined-season hunting license surcharge, and a Seattle sales tax increase of .03%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 You know those buoys that have been placed throughout the oceans loaded with various sensors that transmit data remotely to data collection centers stationed throughout the world? Well, same thing, but in the mountains. Long, vertical, highly sensitive poles like...no, more sensitive than that...are placed throughout the mountains that collect data (wind speed/direction, snow depth, temperature, density, etc.) and send their info to centers for analysis and report. We pay for it through sales of cc.com t-shirts, out-of-state Tauntaun/Snaffle combined-season hunting license surcharge, and a Seattle sales tax increase of .03%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad_A Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 It's interesting to see what Kananaskis Country in Canada does for skiers, and ice climbers. Gives a rating system (1-3), explains each rating, and gives examples of popular areas that people travel in (and clues them in as to what a person will be dealing with in that area). Here's a small jpg- and the full size PDF- http://tprc.alberta.ca/parks/kananaskis/pdfs/ATES/ATR_ATES.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glm Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Compare and contrast: Babu Chiri & Fred Beckey - both reknowned climbers, Chiri neglects to pay attention for 1 second, falls in a crevasse and dies, and Fred lives well into his 80's by being willing to back off to come back and climb another day. I think it is about never stopping the respect you need for the conditions you are surrounded by, and by having that level of respect in the first place. I know some of it is just plain luck, but getting killed by an avalanche is ALWAYS user error because you could have always stayed home or gone somewhere else! The short version is that no amount of warning is going to develope that respect for the mountains other than experience, some of which has to be gained at the expense of close calls or hearing about/seeing people you know get hurt or die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) You know those buoys that have been placed throughout the oceans loaded with various sensors that transmit data remotely to data collection centers stationed throughout the world? Well, same thing, but in the mountains. Long, vertical, highly sensitive poles like...no, more sensitive than that...are placed throughout the mountains that collect data (wind speed/direction, snow depth, temperature, density, etc.) and send their info to centers for analysis and report. We pay for it through sales of cc.com t-shirts, out-of-state Tauntaun/Snaffle combined-season hunting license surcharge, and a Seattle sales tax increase of .03%. There are about 600 snow depth sensors distributed throughout the mountains in the West. Some are manual and must be read by helicopter, but many report their findings by echoing radio signals off of meteor trails (I kid you not). I've seen one of the manual one's being checked by helo near Cloudy Pass. Edited January 8, 2008 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 "Good judgment comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgment." The only sure thing about luck is that it will change. ~Wilson Mizner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_like_sun Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 American skiers, snowboarders and snowmobilers have been watching extreme movies starting back in the Scott Schmidt years in Warren Miller movies and now the X Games. Kodak courage has changed the face of skiing, climbing and many sports and now anything goes... They saw it in a movie and it didn't kill them, equates to "I can do it too". This has led to a complete lack of respect for warnings, rope lines, boundries and closures. I see how powder skiing effects normal people in ways you would never believe. It's got an effect similar to cocaine, people can't get enough. Our instant gradification society with our microwaves, drive throughs, cell phones and i-pods have forever changed the expectations of people. Personal accountability has gone out the window. All of us should slow down and enjoy what we do have. Take time to educate people about the risks and when you see people doing stupid shit, call them on it and make people accountable for their actions. Rescue costs should be high and be paid for by those involved. Poeple who survive rescues should spend time being educated at their expense and be required to pass on their education to others. I think our main problem is within our language. We obsess over time, and time dicates every word we use (past, present, or future tense). I think we are so rolled into the feeling that time is running out that we are killing ourselves. This is where I believe the "fast food nation" comes from. Perhaps we should all learn to speak the native tongue of Hoh. Time does not exist in that language, and the entire Hoh Indian culture revolves around respecting the earth and its massive power. THERE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirwoofalot Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I heard there was an avalanche at Big White inside their sky boundaries; one person missing. If I go BC then I should be willing to take a certain amount of avalanche risk. So my question is, “Should I, or do I, accept a certain amount of avalanche risk while skiing in bounds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 There were actually 4 deaths on the same day. One climber on Mt St Piran in the Rockies, one boarder inbounds at Big White, and two snowmobilers in separate events in the Kootenays. In the case of the Big White death, the slope had been avalanche controlled, skiied thousands of times the previous day, and in fact skiied by patrollers several hours before the avalanche occurred on the day of the incident. All indications point to rising temperatures setting off an unexpected weaknss deep in the snowpack. Given that pretty much everything possible was done to reduce risk and in fact, the slide caught even trained professionals by surprise, it goes a fair way to illustrating the concept of irreducible risk. If you are unwilling to accept this level of risk, staying home is a good option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hafilax Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I know I've set off a few scary sluff slides in Whistler that could have carried me into trees/rocks if they were any bigger. As can be seen in the Big White slide, avalanche danger evolves with changing conditions. You still have to use your head a bit even in avalanche controlled areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TREETOAD Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/01/08/bc-avalanchedeathtollhits23.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/01/08/bc-avalanchedeathtollhits23.html CBC needs to learn to count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/347086_avalanche12.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdk Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 Does anyone have any recommendations on good avy courses in the NW? Preferably in the portland area, but I'd drive for something worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
builder206 Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 The article whose link porter provides above (‘Budget cuts again imperil avalanche forecasts’) says among other things that Washington state has provided “$57,000 in stop-gap funding for the [Northwest Weather and Avalanche Center] through 2008” and that the state also has “a two-year study aimed at figuring out how to reliably fund the region's avalanche warning system.” “Knox Williams, a Colorado-based avalanche expert who is serving as a consultant to the state funding study…” says "The information can be provided in layers of sophistication…it doesn't have to dumb down the product." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 It's sad that it has to happen this way, but it is nice to see that more thought is going towards funding the avy center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Does anyone have any recommendations on good avy courses in the NW? Preferably in the portland area, but I'd drive for something worthwhile. Level 1? There are quite a few more providers out of the Seattle area, I've no experience with any. In Portland the only providers I know of are http://www.mountainsavvy.com/ (which looks to be full) The Mazamas and Mountain Hood Ski Patrol (unsure if either of these are available to non members) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmncwrtr Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 This guy made this after what happened at Big Mountain yesterday. DMtIP222ArY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 i am in no way back country trained. but even i know this year is a terrible year for snow stability. I saw on the news last week or the week before that santiam pass was cover by 2 avalanches in 6 hours with 3 cars caught in the mess. read here seems to me at least in oregon the information is available if you are looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 This guy made this after what happened at Big Mountain yesterday. DMtIP222ArY Potty-mouthed commentator speaks the truth! Here's the story: Montana Avalanche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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