marylou Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I don't think the responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of the retailers, I think it falls to the community, the individuals, and any organization or agency with the power to get the word out. If people head out in the snow without even knowing they NEED this education, I really think we only have ourselves to blame. Just my $.02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I'm only suggesting that we keep a running tally so that we can know in a moment how many people have died in avalanches this season. The best climber is not the one who doesn't get caught in an avalanche. You guys are twisted....save it for "spray". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I thought about this thread today when I passed 20 people at the top of Cowboy, with not a shovel between them from what I could see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 On the other hand, I think it would be great if our local broadcasted weather reports gave a little more information about avalanche dangers when they exist. Not just saying there are high avalanche conditions today, but why and where, i.e., elevations and aspects for the mountain savvy. When the warnings come across the weather radio they take all of about 60 seconds. Coastal communities get wave reports for their surfers, same thing here. Makes sense to me that we all could benefit from that one. What’s the down side? Why do you think they watch the news? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike1 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 On the other hand, I think it would be great if our local broadcasted weather reports gave a little more information about avalanche dangers when they exist. Not just saying there are high avalanche conditions today, but why and where, i.e., elevations and aspects for the mountain savvy. When the warnings come across the weather radio they take all of about 60 seconds. Coastal communities get wave reports for their surfers, same thing here. Makes sense to me that we all could benefit from that one. What’s the down side? Why do you think they watch the news? Why do you think they don't? Why are you debating this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Why do you think they don't? Why are you debating this? uh, evening news demographics? Do you want to do something effective or do you just want to do something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I don't think anyone really watches television any more. Not really the point anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 The best climber is not the one who doesn't get caught in an avalanche. You guys are twisted....save it for "spray". If you were paying attention, you'd have noticed my post followed this one: Unfortunately people with a lot of experience are often among those caught in avalanches. Education and experience are not enough protection. The one thing that keeps a person out of avalanches is the willingness to stay off the dangerous slopes when the danger is significant. Also, if my memory serves me, mine was a paraphrase of a famous quote by the now deceased, Alex Lowe, one of the greatest climbers of our time. So, it may be readily deduced my post was not only in agreement with the sentiment put forth by Nick, but, because Mr. Lowe was reported to have been killed by an avalanche, supplied historical evidence to its veracity. Your inability to readily comprehend combined with the willingness to spray in a charge of "spray" invites comparison to Kevbone. Or, does our recent adversarial history contribute to a "hair trigger" on your part which, now, has resulted in this hunting accident? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 The best climber is not the one who doesn't get caught in an avalanche. Also, if my memory serves me, mine was a paraphrase of a famous quote by the now deceased, Alex Lowe, one of the greatest climbers of our time. So, it may be readily deduced my post was not only in agreement with the sentiment put forth by Nick, but, because Mr. Lowe was reported to have been killed by an avalanche, supplied historical evidence to its veracity. Yah....we all got the quote and the so-called message...that ain't the point. You seem to think everything is one big joke. You want some further "veracity"? Do these names ring a bell to you?: Dave Stutzman, Karl Schneider, Nancy Jackson, Jim Andreus....Never heard of them? All of them were highly educated in avalanche theory and all of them met their deaths in the sliding snow...all of them were good friends of mine. The first three noted were professional mountains guides and I worked with the first two. I'm sure a number of people on this site knew and loved them. Save your lame paraphrastic attempts at comedy for some topic that's more conducive to it. How old are you? Same goes for you, "Choada boy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Personally, I see nothing distasteful or dishonoring in my post. It simply alluded to several points in one statement. You are the one conjecturing an attempt at humor. There is nothing that provides for it but your assumptive prejudice. You are manufacturing the offense and protracting thread drift; get over yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 get over yourself. Nice cliché. How old did you say you were? Thread drift? You got something meaningful and respectful to say about "avalanche deaths this season"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 If I see one more stoo-pid warning label ANYWHERE, I'm gonna fill my trousers with my own shite! Does this apply to the NWAC Web site? If not, why would putting the same information in the hands of more people via news casts or other outlets offend your sensibilities? No, Daniel, it does not apply to NWAC or CSAC. I was referring specifically to warning labels pasted onto products/contained within product literature. This practice of attempting to protect the public from injuring or killing itself through its own stupidity (read: Social Darwinism) has so confounded me over the years that I now find it nigh incomprehensible. To think that a particular manufacturer of a product (any product) must now devine the myriad methods by which one may kill or maim themselves whilst using that particular manufacturer's product, and then be held financially responsible for the consumer's death/dismemberment because the manufacturer didn't provide a warning for that particular form of demise, is unconscionable to me. Where has the "ethic" of personal responsibility gone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I think it’s a great idea to give out a basic level of information that informs people that they may need to get more information and training if they are going to be in an avalanche potential zone... That's all well and good, Mike, if the consumer has the understanding that they need this additional information. It goes back to leading horses to water... Yes, it falls on the ethics of the shop owners... I vehemently disagree with you. By extension of your logic, are you saying that the shop owner that sold the snowboards to the three kids that got killed in the Crystal Mountain BC is somehow to blame for their deaths? I thought not... On the other hand, I think it would be great if our local broadcasted weather reports gave a little more information about avalanche dangers when they exist. Not just saying there are high avalanche conditions today, but why and where, i.e., elevations and aspects for the mountain savvy. emphasis added by sobo It would be great if folks would take the time to listen/watch, but who watches local broadcast TV weather reports anymore anyway, besides the work-a-day commuter? "Mountain savvy" folks get their beta elsewhere, like NWAC, CSAC, NOAA, etc., NOT KOMO or KING-5. More horses and water... When the warnings come across the weather radio they take all of about 60 seconds. Coastal communities get wave reports for their surfers, same thing here. Makes sense to me that we all could benefit from that one. What’s the down side? Probably none, except that (IMO) the people that are most in need of this information wouldn't pay any attention to it anyway. Again, equines and troughs. You want my personal opinion? I suspect that the people getting the chop in the BC are folks that watched a few too many Warren Miller films or X-Game broadcasts, and fall into the "insta-grat" (thanks for the term, dmuja) category of fun-seekers that believe there is no preparation/education requirement beyond having the financial resources to purchase the equipment before being entitled to that fun they seek. "It's out there waiting for me to enjoy it, therefore I should just go get some" sort of mentality. No belief whatsoever that they need to educate themselves of the subjective and objective dangers of their chosen activity. Read that as No Personal Responsibility. A quick perusal of any issue of ANAM would indicate that there are extremely few accidents that aren't caused by the parties themselves. I just finished ANAM 2006, and there are only two or three (reported) cases of "unfortunate position" or "falling rock" (not human-caused), where the people did everything right and still got caught. The point? The point is that folks cause almost all of the bad things that happen to them (or others) in the mountains. Self-instigated education is the key, not warning labels or holding shop owners accountable. Finally, lest you think I'm being all high and mighty, if/when I get the chop, you all can postulate/speculate as to how stoo-pid I was in doing whatever it was that got me killed. I won't mind, because odds will be that I brought it upon myself anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirwoofalot Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Naw, it'll be an endorsement on your biometric-distinctive Federal ID card. Implant, not card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 on a related note: mt baker ski area / BC policy (another thread in cc.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skykilo Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 The only way to stop the deaths of the uninformed and unfortunate would be to stop the snow, which seems both impossible and unacceptable to me. At least we haven't been struck by a catastrophic tsunami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 +1 Avalanche on groomed run at Big White; 1 missing, presumed dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hefeweizen Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 This appears to me to be a variation of the constant discussion about responsilibilty/liability in the mountains in America. Whether it's avalanches, tree wells, terrain park accidents, open/closed boundaries, hill markings, etc... In Europe, they have a long history of mountain travel as part of their culture. It evolved into mountain recreation where first ascents/descents were front page news. The population has been conditioned over a very long period of time to accept personal responsibility because precedence for protection by the government and/or other entities was never established. In America, when our culture started to recreate in the mountains en masse in the 70's and 80's accidents started to happen more often. People sued and won because a jury of your "peers" is actually a jury of people who have no concept of life in the mountains and personal accountability as a requirement in that environment. Thus, the precedence was set that we should be coddled and protected, and if something happens to us then it is always someone else's fault. There is a fundamental difference in the way America has grown up with respect to personal accountability and no amount of warning labels or TV newscasts will change that. What I hope will happen is that eventually enough people will die that those who chose to go to the mountains will take notice and realize that they need to get some education. I don't mean to be insensitive to those who have suffered loss this year, but people wont notice until it's a big deal. The information is there but ala horse and water argument, people wont seek it out if they don't know they need to. What I desperately hope will not happen is that the families and friends of the dead and injured will sue and warning label us into suffication until setting foot outside a prepared ski surface is punishable by imprisonment. In summary: do nothing about the unusual number of avalanche deaths. Continue supporting the NWAC and making sure that there are professional forecasts available. As long as that base is covered, we as a society should not take any responsibility for whether or not people chose to seek out the information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 ...but a good stern warning to the dangers... If I see one more stoo-pid warning label ANYWHERE, I'm gonna fill my trousers with my own shite! I appreciate what you're trying to accomplish by your suggestions, Mikester, but as HC says, it just can't be dumbed down any further/made any easier for the masses. Contained within the literature of my last avalanche beacon purchase: WARNING - Wearing this device will not prevent avalanches! Christ, how stupid do they think people are? Pretty stupid, I guess... The companies putting the warning labels on are not to blame....blame the lawyers. The reason the warnings are there is because some dipstick did exactly what that warning says not to do, and then sued the company that made the product because the product literature didn't stipulate that said action could have negative consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 you say that some dipstick sued, then some idiot jury agreed and gave a bunch of money, yet you say "blame the lawyers." Seems like you are blaming the wrong group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_like_sun Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I think you are right on, hefeweizen. True, the cascades have received a record amount of snow for the month of December this year, and perhaps the conditions have been more dangerous than normal. However, what you said about americans having a different attitude towards the mountains than Europeans is SOOO true. Over here, I think there is a huge lack of respect for the mountains and their inherent danger. As a climber, I feel that I've been taught to practice humility on fear of death. Its basic, you don't travel across an open uncontrolled slope after massive snowfall, just as you don't go run amuck across a glacier with hidden crevasses. The only way we will lower the number of deaths (I believe there will always be some no matter how experienced people are) is through education. Perhaps there should be more organized mountain safety coures available to the public? Or perhaps it will only take more deaths for poeple to learn that the danger is REAL. GOOD THREAD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 However, what you said about americans having a different attitude towards the mountains than Europeans is SOOO true. Over here, I think there is a huge lack of respect for the mountains and their inherent danger. With 7 dead in Austria alone from avalanches since Thursday I think the bigger difference is the attitude towards death. Quite honestly the powder shitshow at the bigger resorts doesn't come close to America - imagine 100s of people skiing uncontrolled terrain, dropping in above you, cutting cornices, you name it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen lifts Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 American skiers, snowboarders and snowmobilers have been watching extreme movies starting back in the Scott Schmidt years in Warren Miller movies and now the X Games. Kodak courage has changed the face of skiing, climbing and many sports and now anything goes... They saw it in a movie and it didn't kill them, equates to "I can do it too". This has led to a complete lack of respect for warnings, rope lines, boundries and closures. I see how powder skiing effects normal people in ways you would never believe. It's got an effect similar to cocaine, people can't get enough. Our instant gradification society with our microwaves, drive throughs, cell phones and i-pods have forever changed the expectations of people. Personal accountability has gone out the window. All of us should slow down and enjoy what we do have. Take time to educate people about the risks and when you see people doing stupid shit, call them on it and make people accountable for their actions. Rescue costs should be high and be paid for by those involved. Poeple who survive rescues should spend time being educated at their expense and be required to pass on their education to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 It seems to me that (ignoring the snowmobile deaths) avalanches typically catch people who have been trained, know the dangers, yet make the decision to go forth regardless. I often wonder if wearing tranceivers actually cause more death then they prevent, by giving that extra courage to enter unstable areas. I would be curious to know the percentages of non-snowmobile folks caught in avalanches who had tranceivers verses those who did not; and percentage who had training verses those who did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hefeweizen Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 It seems to me that (ignoring the snowmobile deaths) avalanches typically catch people who have been trained, know the dangers, yet make the decision to go forth regardless. I often wonder if wearing tranceivers actually cause more death then they prevent, by giving that extra courage to enter unstable areas. I would be curious to know the percentages of non-snowmobile folks caught in avalanches who had tranceivers verses those who did not; and percentage who had training verses those who did not. Start Reading It's a pretty mixed bag. I'd say the biggest common denomenator is people who either didn't have the education, or went out despite unfavorable avy forecasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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