Denali Expedition 2008 - Looking for 10-12 member

[tvashtarkatena]

I could tell right away this was going to be a hot thread when I saw the title. I'm certainly no bible thumper and am turned off by any organized religion but what amazes me is how much animosity comes up when anyone brings up Christianity. I am curious if anyone would would give a rats ass if it was the ClimbigforHellsAngels, ClimbingforAthiests, ClimbingforJihadi or some other less threatening group? Seems like everyone is practically afraid these guys. They are not hurting anyone and just enjoying the right of freedom that we are all so fortunate to enjoy. I wish them a good safe trip. As for me, the whole West But does not sound like to much fun. I go to mountains not only for the challenge but also for peace and escape from the crowds of the lowlands. Spending my mountain experience with hundreds of others and waiting in a cattle line to the summit is just not my thing, but to each his own.

 

Considering the fundamentalist christian legislative agenda to firmly establish this country as a christian nation, I'd say that the strong emotional response is both warranted and deserved.

[mattp]

This is great stuff.

 

Vertical Hiker comes on here seeking climbers for a McKinley trip on a climbers board, a likely place to find them. But, oh my, he has AN AGENDA!!! I’m as much of a secular liberal as anybody around here and I agree with many of the arguments from our esteemed Mr. Healy and some of the others here, but really: some of you guys have Jesus issues!

 

For sure, lots of mayhem has been committed in the name of Christianity, and modern conservative Christian intrusion into American politics is in my view a very real threat to part of what I thought our country stands for, but I sure hope you guys don't carry on with the same acrid rancor in a public debate because it just makes you guys look bad.

[tvashtarkatena]

evolution vs creationism = ignorance no matter which side you are on because it is not a dichotomy except in the minds of the ignorant. Mythologies were everchanging. Ours was frozen by a new technology called literacy. Literacy gave birth to fundamentalism. Jesus threw the Pharisees out of the Temple for adhering to the Law (Torah) without acting with grace.

Jesus also spoke about following your heart not a rule.

He also said that "I am the Word, the word is Love, only through me (Love) will you get to the father."

Now if you are talking about Islam, their "Word" is the Quran, a book. Big difference.

 

What in God's name are you trying to say here?

[tvashtarkatena]

This is great stuff.

 

Vertical Hiker comes on here seeking climbers for a McKinley trip on a climbers board, a likely place to find them. But, oh my, he has AN AGENDA!!! I’m as much of a secular liberal as anybody around here and I agree with many of the arguments from our esteemed Mr. Healy and some of the others here, but really: some of you guys have Jesus issues!

 

For sure, lots of mayhem has been committed in the name of Christianity, and modern conservative Christian intrusion into American politics is in my view a very real threat to part of what I thought our country stands for, but I sure hope you guys don't carry on with the same acrid rancor in a public debate because it just makes you guys look bad.

 

The Great One has Spoken. End of Discussion.

 

"This is great stuff...but it just makes you guys look bad." Talk about covering all your bases.

 

Am I the only one to see the irony of this high horse proclamation?

Edited December 18, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[mattp]

Carry on, Tvash. You're ranting is really quite entertaining but I seriously doubt you and Mr. Healy are convincing anybody of what you think you are saying (and I largely agree with you guys). Just a thought.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

This is great stuff.

 

Vertical Hiker comes on here seeking climbers for a McKinley trip on a climbers board, a likely place to find them. But, oh my, he has AN AGENDA!!! I’m as much of a secular liberal as anybody around here and I agree with many of the arguments from our esteemed Mr. Healy and some of the others here, but really: some of you guys have Jesus issues!

 

:tup:

 

I sure hope you guys don't carry on with the same acrid rancor in a public debate...

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. And you wonder where evangelicals get the idea that certain members of our society hate God, and are doing the Devil's work, and this is reinforced by certain, umm, political viewpoints and affiliations? You don't have to look far to support that thesis. Good work, JH, TTK, and others - thanks for showing us all again your black hearts spewing vitriol.

 

 

 

[wfinley]

is this a non-profit vertical hiker?

 

 

is your institution tax exempt?

 

 

answer this for me please......

 

According to Guide Star they are at 501©3 with an NTEE code of O99—Other Youth Development N.E.C..

 

CLIMBERS FOR CHRIST INC

PO BOX 2528

BIG BEAR CITY, CA 92314

 

Unfortunately they are not required to file any 990s either due to religious affiliations. Thus we don't know how much VH is raking in to climb Denali.

 

[mattp]

You're funny, Mr. K!

 

Meanwhile, what do you think of McDermotts vote against this:

 

The House of Representatives--

 

(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;

 

(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;

 

(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;

 

(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

 

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and

 

(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world.

 

Does this mean that McDermott hates Christmas? What do you think, Vertical Hiker? (Personally, I think it a travesty that anybody would vote for such a resolution.)_

[pup_on_the_mountain]

if he's not trying to convert - then who cares if it is about religion?

He's probably not trying to convert anyone, but he did talk about "sharing his faith".

 

what is the huge taboo w/ religion. open your minds! at least it is in the name of a higher power and not a politician.

Religion, or more specifically the misuse of the same, is the root cause of a big majority of wars and fights that have happened all along the history of time (all over the world), and are still happening. The limited knowledge I have of the philosophy of God, and Life, and related topics, has been more than enough to convince me that these issues are profound, and are not easy to understand completely for most people, and hence the frequent misinterpretations by many. The need to "share the faith" doesn't help much either. Thus, I'm just wary about religion encroaching into an otherwise neutral activity such as mountaineering.

 

I don't approve of any group of climbers supporting a politician either. Talking about labels, every now and then, people climb to raise money for some charity (The Peak Challenge in Colorado where they rasie money for the Emily Griffith Center for Cancer for instance). Now, thats a label I'll support gladly. If vertical_hiker's site was climbingforhelp.com, and the help meant raising some profits through the climbers, and giving all the profits to feed homeless children somewhere, I'd even consider joining him. Along that line, the question raised by Carolyn is key - what kind of "help" are they promising to offer any way?

 

[lizard_brain]

Praying:

 

"Doing nothing while still thinking you're helping."

[tvashtarkatena]

You're funny, Mr. K!

 

Meanwhile, what do you think of McDermotts vote against this:

 

The House of Representatives--

 

(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;

 

(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;

 

(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;

 

(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

 

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and

 

(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world.

 

Does this mean that McDermott hates Christmas? What do you think, Vertical Hiker? (Personally, I think it a travesty that anybody would vote for such a resolution.)_

 

Flagrant violation of the Establishment Clause. Constitutional law 101.

 

As for KKK's stupid post; um, we non-believers don't hate something we, um, don't believe in. What is it that you don't get? As being the servants of Satan, well, of course that goes without saying.

[tvashtarkatena]

Carry on, Tvash. You're ranting is really quite entertaining but I seriously doubt you and Mr. Healy are convincing anybody of what you think you are saying (and I largely agree with you guys). Just a thought.

 

Funny, I don't remember ranting on this thread, Pontif. You may doubt, non-believer, but I challenge you to quote anything I've said on this thread so far that I don't actually believe. Ready, set, go.....

[sirwoofalot]

He also said that "I am the Word, the word is Love, only through me (Love) will you get to the father."

Now if you are talking about Islam, their "Word" is the Quran, a book. Big difference.

 

While I don’t necessarily disagree with your theology, I do need to correct you on one point.

 

The bible says Jesus is the word. The ‘word’ in Greek is logos. Logos means the substance or essence of divinity.

 

John 1:1

In the beginning was the word (logos) and the word (logos) was with God, and the word (logos) was God. NIV.

 

From this you can extrapolate love

[Seahawks]

He also said that "I am the Word, the word is Love, only through me (Love) will you get to the father."

Now if you are talking about Islam, their "Word" is the Quran, a book. Big difference.

 

While I don’t necessarily disagree with your theology, I do need to correct you on one point.

 

The bible says Jesus is the word. The ‘word’ in Greek is logos. Logos means the substance or essence of divinity.

 

John 1:1

In the beginning was the word (logos) and the word (logos) was with God, and the word (logos) was God. NIV.

 

From this you can extrapolate love

 

Only two ways to go with that.

 

1. Jesus was a nut

2. Is who he says he was. God.

 

Can't be a good moral teacher if he was lier.

[Fairweather]

I could tell right away this was going to be a hot thread when I saw the title. I'm certainly no bible thumper and am turned off by any organized religion but what amazes me is how much animosity comes up when anyone brings up Christianity. I am curious if anyone would would give a rats ass if it was the ClimbigforHellsAngels, ClimbingforAthiests, ClimbingforJihadi or some other less threatening group? Seems like everyone is practically afraid these guys. They are not hurting anyone and just enjoying the right of freedom that we are all so fortunate to enjoy. I wish them a good safe trip. As for me, the whole West But does not sound like to much fun. I go to mountains not only for the challenge but also for peace and escape from the crowds of the lowlands. Spending my mountain experience with hundreds of others and waiting in a cattle line to the summit is just not my thing, but to each his own.

 

Well said.

 

Somewhat of an agnostic myself, I find I'm solidly allied with Christians - if for no other reason than they're a lot more laid back these days than the uptight, venom spitting atheists who want a new social order wherein Big Brother supplants God. Many exceptions, of course. So what if a born-again expresses fear for my eternal soul. I appreciate the concern.

Edited December 18, 2007 by Fairweather

[tvashtarkatena]

I don't subscribe to the notion that religion, per se, causes most wars. The root cause of many wars isn't really knowable, kind of like a marital argument, but it seems that competition for land and other resources is near the top of the list. Religion has provided a great deal of legitimacy and social control required for such ventures, though. The conquistadores didn't sail to the New World to spread the faith, they did so to gain riches and status denied to them in the stayed society of the Old World. Spreading the faith helped them get legitimacy and funding for their projects. Even the Crusades were not primarily about religion; they were about consolidating political power and wealth in Europe. Religion made for a great recruitment and fund raising tool, however, as well as a dark pallete with which to paint the enemy.

[pup_on_the_mountain]

Agree with you Tvash. I'll replace the "root cause" in my previous post with something like "major contributer", but the points still hold with this modification . Especially in the 20-21 centuries, where there are no big "Crusades" going on.

[mattp]

... I find I'm solidly allied with Christians - if for no other reason than they're a lot more laid back these days than the uptight, venom spitting atheists who want a new social order wherein Big Brother supplants God. ...

 

Now hold on there, Fairweather. I just took a shot at my buddy Tvash on the question of tone but you're not seriously arguing that the Christian right has a less harmful impact on American politics than the Athiests, are you?

[Fairweather]

I'll kick steps with Christians or atheists. I'll even listen respectfully to what they have to preach. But sooner or later the subject of route planning is gonna have to come up.

[Fairweather]

... I find I'm solidly allied with Christians - if for no other reason than they're a lot more laid back these days than the uptight, venom spitting atheists who want a new social order wherein Big Brother supplants God. ...

 

Now hold on there, Fairweather. I just took a shot at my buddy Tvash on the question of tone, and pissed him off and all, but you're not seriously arguing that the Christian right has a less harmful impact on American politics than the Athiests, are you?

 

One citizen - one vote. They have no more or less power to organize politically than do atheists, liberals, commies, wankers...whoever.

[mattp]

SO you have no problem with chuches telling their members how to vote? Or proclamations that the United States is chosen by god? Or the succcessful efforts of those with some other agenda to manipulate voters over issues such as abortion? My father in law, a democrat all his life, voted for Bush because his pastor told him that Gore was "pro abortion." George Bush justified his war in Iraq with references to religions crusade, and you're telling me the Athiests are a threat?

[Seahawks]

Merry Christmas all!!!!! The spirit of Christmas abounds here.

[chucK]

Sounds like your FiL's pastor just gave him some information on the candidate. First amendment baby!

 

Unless you're leaving a very important part of your story out, he didn't tell him how to vote.

 

And why shouldn't churches be able tell people how they think they should vote? Moveon.org does it! Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee have been doing it multiple times a day for the last several months!

 

(heh, I hope that last sentence get's taken out of context somewhere )

[ericb]

I could tell right away this was going to be a hot thread when I saw the title. I'm certainly no bible thumper and am turned off by any organized religion but what amazes me is how much animosity comes up when anyone brings up Christianity. I am curious if anyone would would give a rats ass if it was the ClimbigforHellsAngels, ClimbingforAthiests, ClimbingforJihadi or some other less threatening group? Seems like everyone is practically afraid these guys. They are not hurting anyone and just enjoying the right of freedom that we are all so fortunate to enjoy. I wish them a good safe trip. As for me, the whole West But does not sound like to much fun. I go to mountains not only for the challenge but also for peace and escape from the crowds of the lowlands. Spending my mountain experience with hundreds of others and waiting in a cattle line to the summit is just not my thing, but to each his own.

 

My theory is that what drives this reaction to Christianity is the perceived mental posture of Christians. I think reality is that evangelism (overt or covert) for most christians who do it is driven by compassion. Unfortunately the posture of some/many of the more vocal evangelicals has an perceived tone of either superiority (I'm enlightened and you are not), or pity (poor little sinner - if you only knew what was going to happen to you). I'm no psychologist, but as guy, I'd far rather be hated than looked down on or pitied. Perhaps that's why many folks out there seem far more tolerant of Muslim fundamentalism than they are of Christian fundamentalism.

 

 

[mattp]

Yes, ChucK, I'm down with the First Amendment.

 

The pastor DID tell him how to vote and, I believe, my father in law felt bound to heed his advice.

 

You're right, MoveOn does it but the difference is that about three hundred years ago some grumpy old guys with wigs on decided that we should try our best to keep churches out of our government and while there have ever since been the occasional political speeches invoking god, and while there may be nothing per se wrong with churches being involved in political discussions, the present trend in American politics is that religion is becoming, for a large segment of the population, THE litmus test for a candidate and the word from their church THE basis for any vote.