Glucosamine / Chondroitin pills

[cycling_mike]

I've had off and on trouble with my left knee for a few years - it seems to flare up if I go running more than twice a week but cycling doesn't really hurt it.

Anyway, a buddy recommended taking glucosamine and chondrotin and I've been taking it for a couple weeks but don't know if it's making a difference... Has anyone else tried it?

[tvashtarkatena]

I take "Now" brand glucosamine & chondroitin with MSM daily available from iHerb.com; a cost effective source for higher quality supplements.

 

At 48, my joints are fine, and I'm not dead or in a wheel chair yet, but it's not like I can 'feel' any difference. The literatures say's it's helpful, and it's not very expensive.

[Reid]

My dad has been taking it for the past couple years and has had really good results. His ankle has problems from a bad car accident years ago, and when taking the glucoamine, chondroitin and some compound of sulfur (can't remember the name) it's apparently more mobile and less painful.

 

I also have trouble with my knee at times and tried talking the stuff for a few weeks. I decided that any benifet I though I was seeing was placebo. I've also seen that clinical trials have shown that its nearly the same a placebo. But at the same time it is known to be necessary building blocks of connective tissue. Seems to make sense to take some if you're active to rebuild the connective tissue and cartilage you've been beating up on. Like extra protein if you were lifting weights.

 

The best thing i've found for any knee trouble is streching all the related muscles.

[Reid]

Yeah MSM, thats the sulfur compound i was thinking of

[builder206]

Cells respond to chondroitin in vivo but when the substance is taken orally, it’s destroyed in the digestive tract. So, taking it as an oral supplement has no effect. One would have to get a form that can be injected intravenously.

 

Glucosmaine and MSM, however, do work.

 

Best overall combination for joint health is daily MSM + glucosamine and at least 2gm (2,000 mg) combined EPA + DHA from fish oil. Best sources for the latter are either Nordic Naturals’ or Carlson’s cod liver oil.

 

You can but cod liver oil that is flavored. It is super fishy otherwise. The Nordic Naturals product provides well over the minimum 2gms of EPA + DHA in only 2 teaspoons (measuring teaspoons, not silverware) of total oil. You can also buy fish oil or cod liver oil capsules. EPA and DHA values vary by brand and form. Do not get hung up on total fish oil. It is the sum of the EPA + DHA values that counts.

 

It will take a while for the glucosamine-MSM-cod liver oil routine to have an effect, so in the absence of effects, stay with it. That said, at best only about 50% of all people (one study puts it as low as 30%) respond. It has helped me. I did two well-controlled experiments on myself a year apart and I know it works for me. Weak spot for me is my knees. The stress I put them under to run the tests was extreme. No way could a placebo effect hide the combination of pain, swelling, and ROM limitations that would have occurred had not something been working in my favor. In both cases, all other factors controlled, the only difference in each case was that I had been following my MSM-glucosmaine-cod liver oil routine for a few weeks.

 

Prior to that I did the same routes with the same load but after having stopped the supplements for 6 weeks. In one instance then, I was not sure I was going to make it off the mountain, the pain was so disabling.

 

My knees have also improved ROM since I started Olympic weightlifting. Both my coaches insist on a full squat without stopping at the bottom. ROM has improved hugely in the two years since I started that. Also, crepitus has greatly diminished. Because of what causes crepitus, it can be improved only by mechnaical means; the supplements can't have an effect on that.

[sexual_chocolate]

The best thing i've found for any knee trouble is streching all the related muscles.

 

Ditto that. i can't say i've ever had any effect from msm/chondroitin/glucosamine beyond placebo effect, but placebo effect is a real effect too, so if it feels like it's working....

 

but stretching, and massaging the IT band (painful!) has really helped knee pain i've had in the past.

[layton]

Don't listen to these guys. Chondroitin and Glucosamine have both been shown to be equally clinically effective in doses of 1200 and 1500 mg respectively. Take the sulfate not the HCL, however. MSM, etc... is just bonus material, focus on high grade Chondroitin of Glucosamine Sulfate.

[pink]

works for me.

[sexual_chocolate]

Don't listen to these guys. Chondroitin and Glucosamine have both been shown to be equally clinically effective in doses of 1200 and 1500 mg respectively. Take the sulfate not the HCL, however. MSM, etc... is just bonus material, focus on high grade Chondroitin of Glucosamine Sulfate.

 

citationz plz. plz indicate study which showz this assertion to be true.

 

cheers.

[sexual_chocolate]

new studies indicate glucosamine can raise cholesterol levels significantly.

[lizard_brain]

I use Triple Flex brand glucosamine and chondroitin and MSM. I get them at Costco. Sometimes they're on sale and I stock up. Used them for 10+ years as a preventative. To tell the truth, I really don't know if they work. Never had joint problems.

[ski2die]

I have been taking glucosamine/chondroitin/msm for 6 months now, along with a steady dosing of cod liver oil. The results are proven. Many studies have been shown that joint pain and swelling decrease, cartilge heals, and flexabilitly increases, as does range of motion.

 

It took about 1 month to see results, but after that it was a night and day difference. I have noticed no side effects. My blood pressure / heart rate / vitals have not changed. I would recommend this suppliment to all.

[Jim]

Actually, after more intestive studies glucosamine has shown to be benificial only to those suffering from severe arthritis. It has no proven effects for minor aches and pains.

 

For participants in the mild pain subset, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate together or alone did not provide statistically significant pain relief.

 

http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/gait/qa.htm#c1

 

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

Many studies have been shown that joint pain and swelling decrease, cartilge heals, and flexabilitly increases, as does range of motion.

 

let's see those studies.

[crackers]

Actually, after more intestive studies glucosamine has shown to be benificial only to those suffering from severe arthritis. It has no proven effects for minor aches and pains.

 

Actually, that's not what GAIT was about, and it's not what phase two of GAIT says. GAIT was a survey of old people with established histories of osteoarthritis, and has little or no application to young people.

 

Interestingly, GAIT phase two has preliminary results suggesting, as other studies have found that low molecular weight glucosamine/chondriton sulfate orally administered has a significant effect on joint spacing.

 

My wife has OA, I don't. We both take g-c in an effort to keep our joint spacings from narrowing.

[hefeweizen]

Has anyone noticed an increase in pain after taking glucosamine and then stopping? A friend of mine says his joint pain was worse after taking it for 6 weeks then laying off.

[layton]

jesus, like I'm going to pull out all the research citations too appease a thread on a climbing website.

[sexual_chocolate]

Actually, after more intestive studies glucosamine has shown to be benificial only to those suffering from severe arthritis. It has no proven effects for minor aches and pains.

 

Actually, that's not what GAIT was about, and it's not what phase two of GAIT says. GAIT was a survey of old people with established histories of osteoarthritis, and has little or no application to young people.

 

Interestingly, GAIT phase two has preliminary results suggesting, as other studies have found that low molecular weight glucosamine/chondriton sulfate orally administered has a significant effect on joint spacing.

 

My wife has OA, I don't. We both take g-c in an effort to keep our joint spacings from narrowing.

 

ok so the study had 93 patients. we can assume that the placebo group had ~46 patients, and the medicated group ~46 patients.

 

(ISK and N aren't defined, a major short-coming, but) the response rate (what exactly was the response?) was 52% for medication and 28% for placebo

 

so in other words, ~24 patients "responded" (what does this mean?) to medication, whilst ~13 patients "responded" to a placebo.

 

i don't know man, i can't say i'm convinced. one study, not properly defined, with undefined "results", concerning effects on clinically diagnosed osteoarthritis (is this really what climbers tend to suffer from? doubtful....)

[sexual_chocolate]

jesus, like I'm going to pull out all the research citations too appease a thread on a climbing website.

 

you don't have to pull out ALL the research, just a little itty bitty bit.

 

cheers.

[crackers]

so in other words, ~24 patients "responded" (what does this mean?) to medication, whilst ~13 patients "responded" to a placebo.

 

X-Rays and MRI's of their knees, hips and ankles to determine joint spacing. In the GAIT phase two and in the post menopausal OA study, the patients on the g-c practically no decrease in joint spacing, those without had noticeable decreases in joint spacing.

 

Radiology ain't good enough for you?

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

sounds like a different study.

 

yes i am being the devil's advocate, but i tend to question results of studies such as this.

 

another point to consider: ok so let's assume trial after trial points to increased joint spacing with the above medication regime, with resultant decrease in symptoms, how would this be relevant in the typical symptomatic response to say finger pulley injury in the typical climber injury? what i've read (One Move Too Many) is that climbers tend to have LESS osteoarthritis symptoms than non-climbers, and the studies above only concerned OA.

[crackers]

how would this be relevant in the typical symptomatic response to say finger pulley injury in the typical climber injury?

 

Well, if the finger pulley injury will lead to OA, maybe you should consider doing what you can to avoid arthritis down the line...

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

but is there ANY evidence suggesting that a pulley or like injury can lead to OA?

Like i said, in One Move Too Many it is noted that climbers tend to have lower incidences of OA than non-climbers.

[crackers]

but is there ANY evidence suggesting that a pulley or like injury can lead to OA?

Like i said, in One Move Too Many it is noted that climbers tend to have lower incidences of OA than non-climbers.

 

Honestly, I have absolutely no idea, no knowledge or anything like it.

 

For me, it's more or less a preventive. I've done enough crap to my body that I'm likely to develop OA down the road, and I'd like to push it as far back as possible...

[Jim]

FYI

 

Subgroup Therapy

 

"This rigorous, large-scale study showed that the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate1. a glycosaminoglycan that predominates in connective tissue, particularly cartilage, bone, and blood vessels, and in the cornea.

2. a preparation of chondroitin sulfate from bovine tracheal cartilage, administered orally for the treatment of osteoarthritis and joint pain.

 

..... Click the link for more information. appeared to help people with moderate to severe pain from knee osteoarthritis, but not those with mild pain," says Stephen Straus, director of the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. (NCCAM NCCAM - National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NIH)

NCCAM - National Colorectal Cancer Awareness Month helped organize and fund the GAIT trial.)

 

How did he reach that conclusion? A quarter of the GAIT participants started the study with moderate to severe pain in their knees, pain that "generally worsens a person's quality of life," explains the study leader, Daniel Clegg of the University of Utah School of Medicine in Salt Lake City.

 

When the GAIT researchers looked only at those 354 people, they found that 79 percent reported at least some relief with the glucosamine-chondroitin combination, more than those taking Celebrex (69 percent) or the placebo (54 percent).

 

"I think the finding in those with moderate to severe pain is important," says Clegg. "But it should be interpreted cautiously."

 

Others aren't so cautious. "People who experience moderate to severe joint discomfort are the ones most in need of treatment," Jason Theodosakis told Business Week magazine in February.

 

Theodosakis, who was a member of GAIT's oversight committee, is the author of The Arthritis Cure, a 1997 bestseller that introduced the public to glucosamine and chondroitin.

 

"For this group, the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin resulted in significant pain and function improvement," he says.

 

Boston University's David Felson is buying none of it.

 

"If you mess around with data long enough, you'll find something," he says. But that doesn't mean the results are valid. "If you do 100 studies of a treatment that show no effect, in 90 of them you can find some subgroup where the treatment had an effect just by chance," he explains.

 

To keep from being swayed by those chance (but tempting) findings, researchers try to look only at what the study was designed to look at. And the GAIT study wasn't designed to look separately at people with moderate to severe pain.

 

"There's no data from previous studies that suggests that this particular subgroup would be more or less likely to respond to glucosamine or chondroitin," notes Felson.

 

"The GAIT researchers pre-defined a primary outcome and seven secondary outcomes they would measure to see if the two supplements worked," he explains.

 

Glucosamine and chondroitin had no impact on the primary outcome (at least a 20 percent decrease in pain) or any of the secondary outcomes (like reduced stiffness).

 

"None of the outcomes targeted the subgroup of subjects suffering moderate to severe pain," he adds.

 

Tempting Sulfate?

 

Why did the GAIT study contradict some earlier studies? One possibility is that the glucosamine hydrochloride used in GAIT doesn't work as well as the glucosamine sulfate used in most earlier studies (and found in most supplements).

 

GAIT's lead investigator explains why the study used glucosamine hydrochloride.

 

"The National Institutes of Health required us to test glucosamine like a drug," says Daniel Clegg. "At the time, only glucosamine hydrochloride was manufactured to pharmaceutical specifications."

 

But the GAIT researchers concluded that people could absorb glucosamine hydrochloride as well as they could absorb glucosamine sulfate. "We did solubility trials that indicated that glucosamine was readily available in either form," says Clegg.

 

If the GAIT planners had thought the form would matter, they could have had glucosamine sulfate made just for the trial. That's what they did for chondroitin, because "there were no commercial chondroitin products available that were manufactured to drug standards," explains Clegg.

 

Boston University's David Felson has another explanation for why glucosamine and chondroitin seemed to work in some earlier studies but flopped in the GAIT trial.

 

"Meta-analyses have shown that industry sponsorship of drug trials produces biased results," he says. Indeed, most of the earlier trials were underwritten by supplement manufacturers. In contrast, "all of the four publicly funded studies have found no effect."

 

It's not necessarily that industry-funded researchers are fabricating results, but that publicly funded trials are larger and more careful to ensure that when something works, it's not due to chance.

 

Where does that leave arthritis sufferers? "Because of the small size of the GAIT's moderate-to-severe-pain subgroup," says Clegg, the findings "need to be confirmed in a study designed for that purpose."

 

While Felson doesn't advise his patients to stop taking the supplements, he thinks that further studies would be a waste.

 

"If my patients think glucosamine and chondroitin are helping them, who am I to tell them to stop?" he asks. "It doesn't cause any harm and it's not that expensive. But I think there's convincing evidence now that this is not an effective therapy for osteoarthritis and that no further research needs to be done.

 

"We have many other investments we need to make in arthritis research, especially treatment, since there are few effective treatments."

 

The Bottom Line

 

* Glucosamine alone and chondroitin alone don't relieve pain from osteoarthritis of the knees any better than a placebo.

 

* The combination of glucosamine and chondroitin doesn't help people with mild arthritis pain.

 

* Glucosamine plus chondroitin seems to help people with moderate to severe arthritis pain, but those results may have been due to chance.

 

* There's no evidence that taking glucosamine and/or chondroitin is harmful.