noliquidity Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Quoting sexual chocolate, (that just sounds wrong!) "The last hundred years of Mid-East policy has been a resounding success, playing out in a manner supported by BOTH parties (wow, we in this democracy really live in a two party state!). The US and other western nations have continued to maintain access ("access"? is this fair to say? is "control" more accurate?)to hydrocarbons through the machinations (and other market developments, manipulations etc) that we are speaking of in iran. the iranian blowback is certainly a consequence of this meddling, but to rate US foreign policy as a "failure" because of this instance is a bit over-reaching; i would think it would simply be called a statistical "necessity" in the bigger FP game of geopolitics." If access to oil reserves is the variable your using to measure success in our policies then we have been successful. But did you notice what is going on now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Thats true, but a person who shall remain nameless went and shoved a big fucking stick in the eye of some guy named Chavez. OOPS!! I'm sorry Hillary will fix all that within days of her inauguration. McCain had a chance, until he found Jesus Political reality in the US. I hated it when Lieberman starting toeing the Dem party line; I liked Obama, but he'll do the same. Giuliani has jumped on the religion talking points just like McCain. It's all lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 If access to oil reserves is the variable your using to measure success in our policies then we have been successful. But did you notice what is going on now? i think it's the variable most often used. realpolitik and all. i'm not saying it's how i define "success", but it's certainly the metric used by many, including some at this site. as far as what's going on now.... i don't know if current events would deem the long term strategy a failure, quite honestly. yes, oil prices are high, but the US is sitting on the second largest known oil reserves, with contracts in hand (and this "prize" comes at a time when china's ravenous appetite gobbles up oil contracts globally, reducing an already dwindlng supply). No, I'd say even the current situation can be viewed a "success", possibly a resounding one at that. I mean come on, what's a few thousand US soldier deaths when the stakes are this high? what's a few hundred thousand deaths of "the other guy" within this scenario? Not much, evidently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noliquidity Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 If access to oil reserves is the variable your using to measure success in our policies then we have been successful. But did you notice what is going on now? i think it's the variable most often used. realpolitik and all. i'm not saying it's how i define "success", but it's certainly the metric used by many, including some at this site. as far as what's going on now.... i don't know if current events would deem the long term strategy a failure, quite honestly. yes, oil prices are high, but the US is sitting on the second largest known oil reserves, with contracts in hand (and this "prize" comes at a time when china's ravenous appetite gobbles up oil contracts globally, reducing an already dwindlng supply). No, I'd say even the current situation can be viewed a "success", possibly a resounding one at that. I mean come on, what's a few thousand US soldier deaths when the stakes are this high? what's a few hundred thousand deaths of "the other guy" within this scenario? Not much, evidently. I really hope your being sarcastic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 If access to oil reserves is the variable your using to measure success in our policies then we have been successful. But did you notice what is going on now? i think it's the variable most often used. realpolitik and all. i'm not saying it's how i define "success", but it's certainly the metric used by many, including some at this site. as far as what's going on now.... i don't know if current events would deem the long term strategy a failure, quite honestly. yes, oil prices are high, but the US is sitting on the second largest known oil reserves, with contracts in hand (and this "prize" comes at a time when china's ravenous appetite gobbles up oil contracts globally, reducing an already dwindlng supply). No, I'd say even the current situation can be viewed a "success", possibly a resounding one at that. I mean come on, what's a few thousand US soldier deaths when the stakes are this high? what's a few hundred thousand deaths of "the other guy" within this scenario? Not much, evidently. I really hope your being sarcastic oh wise friend, why don't you tell me the most likely outlook of people like cheney etal and explain, with the current evidence in mind, how their thinking differs from the above analysis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 oh wise friend, why don't you tell me the most likely outlook of people like cheney etal and explain, with the current evidence in mind, how their thinking differs from the above analysis? Wow, you can read minds across great distances! Amazing! Does that come as a fringe benefit with "enlightenment"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Wow, you can play the russian village idiot in a contemporary setting! Amazing! Does that come as a fringe benefit with graduating "magna cum filled pastry boy"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Wow, you can play the russian village idiot in a contemporary setting! Amazing! Does that come as a fringe benefit with graduating "magna cum filled pastry boy"? бідний дурак, ти чуєш дзвін а не знаеш де й він. москаль, селянин? срати на матір твою! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 oh my god! do you speak russian? oh my god that's so freaking awesome! i speak some other languages too, but i generally don't post in those languages cuz i know most others don't speak them, and i would look like a fool. But don't let that stop ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 oh my god! do you speak russian? oh my god that's so freaking awesome! i speak some other languages too, but i generally don't post in those languages cuz i know most others don't speak them, and i would look like a fool. But don't let that stop ya! Почему-то, я очень сомневаюсь в твоему "знании" разных языков, дурак. Очевидно, я действую на твои нервы, как я отвечаю на твои глупые "оскарбления" на русском. Это моя цель. Я не русский, и ты ничего не знаешь ни про русских ни про украинских. По-этому дурак показывается ты сам! Лучше было закрыть твое проклятое рыло. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fear_and_greed Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 oh my god! do you speak russian? oh my god that's so freaking awesome! i speak some other languages too, but i generally don't post in those languages cuz i know most others don't speak them, and i would look like a fool. But don't let that stop ya! Почему-то, я очень сомневаюсь в твоему "знании" разных языков, дурак. Очевидно, я действую на твои нервы, как я отвечаю на твои глупые "оскарбления" на русском. Это моя цель. Я не русский, и ты ничего не знаешь ни про русских ни про украинских. По-этому дурак показывается ты сам! Лучше было закрыть твое проклятое рыло. For some reason, I greatly doubt to your the "knowledge" of different languages, fool. Obviously, I act on your nerves, as I answer your foolish of "oskarbleniya" in the Russian. This is my purpose. 4 not Russian, and you nothing know either about the Russians or about the Ukrainian. Therefore fool you shows itself! Better it was to shut your cursed snout ... I don't know if Babelfish lost something in the translation but the last line is quite the slap in the face. Or at least a refreshing change from "jizz gurgling fudge packer" or somesuch common refrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Silent no more.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 I posted this 3 weeks ago. It contains some more details. http://vaultedsky.blogspot.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbw1966 Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2512105.ece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Same article. The link was in the subject header, but I removed it and added it at the bottom just for you Rob. PM sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 This is a great thread. Very thought provoking. I appreciate all of your hard work. I find it fascinating that whenever someone gets a good thoughtful post in, JayB almost invariably responds with some version of, "Interesting theory. I wonder though how you would explain the events happening on the Moon?" I just think it's kind of silly to base your understanding of something as complex as the history of the middle east in the 20th century on a single variable. While some of the appeal and subsequent political successes of Islamists in the Middle East can be attributed to "blowback" against the US in particular or the West in general, it seems quite unreasonable to conclude that there are no other legacies, dynamics, perogatives, etc operating within the Middle East that have some bearing on this question. Egypt provides a case in point. Islamists tried to kill Nasser - Mister Pan-Arab-Nationalist-and-Heroic-Defier-of-the-West - twice. Ever wonder what their motivations were for doing so, and if they might have been acting in response to motivations that had their genesis outside of a direct response to US foreign policy? Why was it that Khomeni's message, rather than that of the other factions who opposed the Shah, that had the greatest traction in Iran? Pointless tangents? I'm not so sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Agreed. There are obviously many factors in play in these complicated world events. Why are you compelled to believe that anytime someone makes a point about one of these factors that they are implying it is the only factor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 If it's the only factor that they cite - repeatedly - then it seems reasonable to conclude that they are either unaware other factors, or choosing not to incorporate them into their analysis for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 The moon is made out of cheese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmoore Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 The moon is made out of cheese. Very interesting. Some would say we don’t really know if the moon is made from cheese due to going there was a hoax. I do believe man has landed on the moon. What is up with the Russian dude? Speaking Russian is pretty neat and I am sure you have impressed more women with it than I would care to know about, but I /we cannot read you’re words. Please keep the second languages to your self. Or I will be forced to post in Pig Latin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 That is an interesting proposal. I think Pig Latin is made out of cheese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmoore Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 That is an interesting proposal. I think Pig Latin is made out of cheese. Pepper jack or cheddar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 If it's the only factor that they cite - repeatedly - then it seems reasonable to conclude that they are either unaware other factors, or choosing not to incorporate them into their analysis for some reason. Thats wonderful and all - but did you know their are 20,000 beady eyed Venetians extorting tourists at this very moment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 I just think it's kind of silly to base your understanding of something as complex as the history of the middle east in the 20th century on a single variable. Perhaps not, but a single phrase might do: "Lakalakalakajihad!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 In fact, the last hundred years of Mid-East policy has basically been a continous disaster because we keep trying to manage and manipulate cultures and tribes in the Mid-East like they are in Central America. Here's where you are entirely wrong. The last hundred years of Mid-East policy has been a resounding success, playing out in a manner supported by BOTH parties (wow, we in this democracy really live in a two party state!). The US and other western nations have continued to maintain access ("access"? is this fair to say? is "control" more accurate?)to hydrocarbons through the machinations (and other market developments, manipulations etc) that we are speaking of in iran. the iranian blowback is certainly a consequence of this meddling, but to rate US foreign policy as a "failure" because of this instance is a bit over-reaching; i would think it would simply be called a statistical "necessity" in the bigger FP game of geopolitics. Actually not. For the trillions we've spent on our Middle Eastern policy, we could have been energy independent years ago. It has been a very poor investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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