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Yossarian

Outer Space

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What could I say that would matter at this point? Nothing.

Chop 'em Caveman, even if they don't see the light eventually the transgressors will tire of spending money on bolts and drill bits.

This wouldn't even be as issue if people still had to hand drill every bolt (as those of us who've done it will attest, even in sandstone it sucks)

Should make the party fun though, people getting blindsided by bottles, drill bits in the back, crowbars upside the head. Rave on!

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I did Remorse start variation last week on Outer Space and gobied out on the sandbag 5.7 pitch! I went out on the face right to avoid chimney though and had to powerjam back left over a block that is probably a grunge crawl behind it. Great traverse on second pitch! Highly recommend over the regular start. More good climbing to two tree ledge.

 

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Whats all this hullabaloo about bolts?! Well anyways, besides the bouldering I've done I spent my first whole day climbing without clipping a hangar for protection, as an anchor, or for rappel on Saturday. Either way it's all good to me, I just like climbing.

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Caveman, ( where do you get your fucking info)

Aaron had no part in the bolting of DDD. As far as I know the route has never been led from the ground up without bolts without rehersal. Even hardman Dave toproped it first. A good friend of mine works with Stoddard in Boulder and even the first ascentionists used much rehersal before leading it. Is that bold??? Have you led it in its current or past state. Its still quite sporty. Before you chop anything you should look around and consider the local ethics. Many local testpieces have a few bolts on them where gear could be placed. maybe you should use your time in a more positive manner and replace all the funky anchors on Castle Rock.

Dale Remsberg

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Whatever Dale If you want to start a fucking war about it all I guess we can.

Maybe we should bolt the rest of the earth. The tr just wasnt good enough and the boneheads had to bolt the shit because there were not satisfied with that. On that note maybe we should bolt all the lines there in your eyes huh??!!

Hasta Dickhead!

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 07-03-2001).]

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Headpointing is a valid style, eh? Just like drinking tea and eating frenchfry and fried egg sandwiches wot?

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Yes I prefer shouts of rage and comments that are completely hostile in nature. Maybe I should be in the army still tongue.gif as a sergeant? Gimme my guns back!!

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Hey Cavey,

Maybe instead of chopping them you could make some tags for the hangers that say:

"Howdy ya fuckin pussy bolt clipper, grow a pair will ya?"

or some other equally witty quip. Or maybe pull 'em and put some rusty-ass 1/4" stars and leeper hangers in there and see how many folks clip those. I say chop 'em though, only way to make the point really. Talk is cheap, chalk is cheap, and I'm cheap, but chop 'em and I'll buy ya a pint for your efforts, hell I'll sport you a pitcher if you chop 'em, Guiness work for ya?

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A number of times I see coments such as "Anyway, it sounds like everyone's more or less on the same page on this, so no point in arguing." Who is every one? The 10 or so same people commenting repeatedly? I'm not on that page, and my opinion counts just as much as any one of yours. You people do not voice the opinion of the majority of the climbing community! Are you going to call the "first ascentionist" and ask him if it's cool to chop the route that was recently retroed? I believe the bolters did before they drilled. I also heard they asked publicly for comments before doing it. You don't even know who they are! (Falsely accusing people seems to be a habit from some!) You should certainly talk to them before any action is taken, as Victor suggested.

I do not think you should chop the bolts on DDD!

[This message has been edited by slaphappy (edited 07-03-2001).]

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Cavey -

Any PMs I have sent were rejoinders to one sent from your "friend." Since I have access to the complete discourse every time I sign on I would be more than happy to "cut and paste" them to this thread. Tim or Jon have my permission to post the entire discourse as well. I do not think they contin anything inconsistent with what I have advocated here but they will prove to be inconsistent with what you have said. Simply put you have either been lied to or are doing so yourself. Appearently your facts regarding Arron where wrong too. Your comments here exactly prove my point that a debate based on goodwill will be more effective than on based on anger, lies, threats and rants.

So you can start now and answer my question as to what routes you've chopped and why. We would all be able to learn from you -after all you have clearly stated your intent to send a message to those reprobate bolters. Just think - you can double or triple the effect of just chopping a single route - DDD - and relive past glories as well. Hey now there is some "sarchasm".

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I have seen the bolts in question and they are obnoxious and ugly. What is wrong with top roping? Why did the bolters feel they needed to deface this beautiful piece of rock? Is the route better because those who get on the sharp end feel their egos stroked by clipping big shiny bolts? It really kills me to see those bolts.

At a minimum I would like to see the bolts painted over to match the color of the rock.

Ray, if you can pull the bolts and patch the holes with glue and dust so that DDD looks more like it did in its original condition then I fully support you in chopping the bolts.

The aim of the chopping should be to return the climb to its original asthetic.

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I'm generally in agreement with the notion of limiting bolts in some places (e.g., Snow Creek Wall) while using bolts liberally in others (e.g., faces at Vantage). I am, however, uncomfortable with turning over the decision as to when and where bolts are appropriate to individuals. Who gets to draw the line in the sand? What if I don't agree with their decisions. Caveman is right, we can't stop him. That is the troubling part, unless we have some sort of consensus building, we can't stop anyone from doing whatever they feel like doing. That isn't how civilization works. Hmmm...Caveman? Nevermind.

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Calm down everyone.

No one is advocating a bolted rappel line on Snow Creek. I think we all agree that is absurd. Someone did in fact place 2 bolts on Library Ledge some years ago and were promptly removed.

Beside Condor, where is the overbolted plague exactly? Is it overbolting or overdeveloping? The Skaha bluffs saw 500 routes go in in a few years. What about Vantage? It's already a quarry, so it doesn't count? Leavenworth sees less than 20 or less new routes per year (over the last 10 years)Retrobolting is a different issue entirely. Obviously, I have my own interests at stake, but I get tired of these gloom and doom blanket statements of the deterioration of our "sense of adventure". We're talking about cragging, not mountaineering. I agree that bigger climbs like Snow Creek Wall are the exception, they have history and shouldn't be messed with.

Placing a bolt is not "easy", physically or psychologically. Chopping, while sometimes justified (like Library Ledge) makes me queasy. Threats are just macho stupidity. Anger tends to cloud one's judgement.

I know this much: If we didn't clean and bolt new routes around here, there wouldn't be any new routes worth doing. That is the bottom line. Somebody prove me wrong.

Note to Caveman: Please contact me before you start cranking out bolts. I can connect you with the DDD crew (Who's Aaron?). No matter what you think, they did consider their acts

beforehand and there was discussion. Let's discuss some more before we go crazy. You have my address.

As for the rest of you: Go climbing! Or back to more pertinent topics like burger joints and Bobbi's tits.

 

 

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the original asthetic as I know it is this: DDD was originally toproped extensively to wire the moves, ALL the gear was preplaced, including at least 2 pitons that were removed afterwards. Sound familiar? Sport climbing was just becoming more accepted back then but it was still new so those guys didn't add bolts for whatever reason: the expense, the effort of hand-drilling or the moral dilemma. Regardless, the first ascenders gave their blessing for the retro. Many of us were consulted beforehand as well. The guys that did the job are experienced, well-respected PNW climbers and smart enough to know better than jump into this pointless debate. That's all I know. Happy 4th to all.

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What I still don't understand is why people are so against rehearsal and wiring before a lead? If a sport climber spends a week working and leads with all the draws pre-placed and the first few bolts cheater sticked, that's fine, but if a gear climb is worked to the same degree everyone gets upset and says, Bolt it??

PS Off topic but same area, is it true that Supercrack has never been repeated, & if so, why?

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interesting topic that has gotten quite off track from the original post of rapping off snow creek. i spent the last month in leavenworth area and have done most of the routes mentioned previously. about rapping off snow creek wall, it seems feasable if some anchors are available on top. you could rap to library ledge, rap off the south end from a bolt and chain to another set of chains about 85 ft or so down, then to the top of pitch 5 on iconoclast(chains here), then rap that route all the way down via slings on blocks and trees. would i do this?-no way i'd choose to do the easy walk off every time. ahh, now the DDD topic-after climbing up the pinned out angel crack to the fixed pin and the ugly anchor slings, i thought i might try the sport route to the right which my partner informed me was retroed, which prompted the thought of leading it without bolts-glad i didn't as i pitched a few times. my opinion is that the bolts aren't necessary and a tr or headpoint is just fine. but would i chop it-no way, i am not part of the local community so why would i show up at their area and start chopping? also it sounds like much thought went into this bolt job and had the well wishes from the FA party. there are much better things to be chopping than the bolts on DDD. such as the the slings through all the bolts on the first pitch of RPM, you can barely fit a draw into those things, then you could chop all the slings around every tree and block on that wall, next off to the visor to pull off those slings. anyways, put your crowbar away and bring some scissors to the crags next time.

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I got a better idea just while driving back from Index today. Hahahahahah I am sure you will hear about the results soon. I am not going to chop them but you'll see...........

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