pope Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Yes, in keeping with Popes direction, first you have a single bolt, which soon evolves into this: Yes, it all starts with this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I could be wrong....pictures are deceiving, but he does not appear to be bolting a crack. So your problem is all bolts? Just trying to get a feel for what your issue is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 I think that climbing, for me, is about many things that encompase both the physical and the mental.......all the bolts in the world do not have the impact which a single road represents, but you still drive do you not? I'd really love never to have to read this argument again. Allow me to illustrate how ridiculous it is by extrapolating its logic. This argument essentially says, "Our little problem over here, what we're doing, is quite OK, 'cause there's something worse going on over there." How convenient! Let's suppose a thief robs my neighbor's house. Then, by your logic, that makes it OK for me to walk out of the convenience store with a 6-pack of beer hiding in my pants. By comparing roads to thieving and stealing, you are you saying roads are bad things. But they are not in and of themselves bad. Try and not drive at all next week, or use any roads for that matter: either to work or shopping, or to the hospital. Roads are not bad and there are mega millions of miles of it in the US alone I'd suspect. Roads CAN be a bad thing, but are not necessarily so. That is the comparison Pope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 a blank piece of rock seems for many to be an invitation to "create" a "route". Why not follow a natural line and take your gear home with you when you're done? Why not top-rope the majority of routes at places like Vantage? Why not just leave the rock alone if the alternative is to drill the snot out of it and leave a permanent metallic trail? Sport climbing is a disaster! No, you are wrong. It is not. That is only your opinion and you are wrong about it. By the way, it ain't just me, "pope", and a handful of others living around here that think so. In the bigger picture...go ahead, ask Yvon Chouinard, Rheinhold Messner, and Doug Scott....(now let's wait for the "youngsters" - if they've ever heard of these guys - to call them old-school, burned-out losers.) Nobody is calling them losers. But I will say that you seem oblivious to the FACT they all placed and clipped bolts. Which is a FACT, something which your posts often sorely lack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I think that climbing, for me, is about many things that encompase both the physical and the mental.......all the bolts in the world do not have the impact which a single road represents, but you still drive do you not? I'd really love never to have to read this argument again. Allow me to illustrate how ridiculous it is by extrapolating its logic. This argument essentially says, "Our little problem over here, what we're doing, is quite OK, 'cause there's something worse going on over there." How convenient! Let's suppose a thief robs my neighbor's house. Then, by your logic, that makes it OK for me to walk out of the convenience store with a 6-pack of beer hiding in my pants. By comparing roads to thieving and stealing, you are you saying roads are bad things. But they are not in and of themselves bad. Try and not drive at all next week, or use any roads for that matter: either to work or shopping, or to the hospital. Roads are not bad and there are mega millions of miles of it in the US alone I'd suspect. Roads CAN be a bad thing, but are not necessarily so. That is the comparison Pope. Well, I suppsoe stealing and thieving can be bad, but "are not in and of themselves bad". I'm sure you can apply situational ethics to justify just about anything. Perhaps you don't necessarily have a problem with this creation: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I could be wrong....pictures are deceiving, but he does not appear to be bolting a crack. So your problem is all bolts? Just trying to get a feel for what your issue is? Bolts next to cracks, adding bolts to bold leads, rappel-placed bolts, power drills in wilderness areas, bolts on easily top-roped walls, bolts in areas popular with hikers. Lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Bill - don't distract them. With every post you coax out of them you're depriving them of a morsel of time, energy, or concentration that they'll need so bring about the closure of all sport climbing areas in the Northwest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 Well, I suppsoe stealing and thieving can be bad, but "are not in and of themselves bad". I'm sure you can apply situational ethics to justify just about anything. Perhaps you don't necessarily have a problem with this creation: Lame attempt to sidestep the discussion. Roads = thieving? Dude, walk away from the pipe and lets keep on track here will ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 BTW, the via Ferrata system grew 100's of years ago out of an attempt for village people trying to cross some shit-assed hard passes to trade with their neighbors and not starve to death in the harsh alpine environment they lived in: in that sense, why should I pass judgment on it any more than a road? Or why would you? People often just go driving for pleasure as well. Have you done anything to stop or prevent roads? So no, to answer your question, I don't have a problem like you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 Bill - don't distract them. With every post you coax out of them you're depriving them of a morsel of time, energy, or concentration that they'll need so bring about the closure of all sport climbing areas in the Northwest. Thanks JB, so true. It's a lot like talkin' to rocks, except rocks are more logical. Kens problem was lack of balance. Pope and Raindawg exhibit this as well. BTW, regardless of what you may think about it: a judge said this: " Nichols explained to the court that his actions were ethical ones: Ken was saving the cliffs from the “sport climbers”. The judge told Nichols he sounded like a like a school yard bully and that an “ethical” stance would not involve destruction of private property and endangerment of the lives of others. It was then that the judge added the stipulation about “no chopping anywhere” to the plea deal." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Well, I suppsoe stealing and thieving can be bad, but "are not in and of themselves bad". I'm sure you can apply situational ethics to justify just about anything. Perhaps you don't necessarily have a problem with this creation: Lame attempt to sidestep the discussion. Roads = thieving? Dude, walk away from the pipe and lets keep on track here will ya? Lame attempt to side-step discussion of inappropriate bolting: impact of bolts < impact of roads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Bolts next to cracks We agree on this. adding bolts to bold leads Only, and I mean ONLY if the FA approves of this. rappel-placed bolts, Bolting on lead is certainly respectable and has my admiration. But in my time of climbing, I have found that rap bolted climbs are bolted with more responsibility for those who follow you in the future. Climbs that were done on lead, holds my attention more…..but it seems I only climb those climbs once due to exposure to injury. If I am injured I don’t climb at all. That’s no fun. Of course we have the yahoo’s with a drill and go crazy…….which is probably the reason for your concern. power drills in wilderness areas, Well……we may not agree on this……mmmm…..how do I put this in a soft tone…… I don’t give a fuck about using a power drill in a wilderness area. If you want to lug the thing around…..more power to you. bolts on easily top-roped walls, So if you can top rope it……it should never be bolted to lead it? I guess you could say…..if you can fly over it and look at it…..you should never cut the trees down and drive through it. bolts in areas popular with hikers. Will you be more specific please? Do the hikers come first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 a blank piece of rock seems for many to be an invitation to "create" a "route". Why not follow a natural line and take your gear home with you when you're done? Why not top-rope the majority of routes at places like Vantage? Why not just leave the rock alone if the alternative is to drill the snot out of it and leave a permanent metallic trail? Sport climbing is a disaster! Then Billcoe say: No, you are wrong. It is not. That is only your opinion and you are wrong about it. Mr. Billcoe...you really lost it with that one. By the way, it ain't just me, "pope", and a handful of others living around here that think so. In the bigger picture...go ahead, ask Yvon Chouinard, Rheinhold Messner, and Doug Scott....(now let's wait for the "youngsters" - if they've ever heard of these guys - to call them old-school, burned-out losers.) Billcoe say: Nobody is calling them losers. But I will say that you seem oblivious to the FACT they all placed and clipped bolts. Which is a FACT, something which your posts often sorely lack. It doesn't matter if they've placed or clipped a thousand (yet another smokescreen....turn the issue into a hypcrisy debate rather than addressing the issue.) Go ahead....ask them what they think. And on this site, I recall the names that were addressed at Mr. Chouinard after his comments about sport-climbing were quoted a few years ago. I also recall the names I was called previously when I cited the inspirational ethical considerations promoted in the 1972 Chouinard catalog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 And on this site, I recall the names that were addressed at Mr. Chouinard after his comments about sport-climbing were quoted a few years ago. I also recall the names I was called previously when I cited the inspirational ethical considerations promoted in the 1972 Chouinard catalog. Not by me Don. Never called you a name. I thought that the 3 or so catalogs C produced in that time frame were all inspirational ethically. (Ethical inspirations). 4 nope, 5 FAs last mo, no bolts top bottom middle or rap. You see any crack(s) in this pic? My mind, if someone puts bolts on it, so frikkan what? I'd rather that than people die. Don't blow it so far out of proportion. But thats me. BTW, yesterday, I went out and shoveled an ascent trail to bedrock where I saw a family of 4 tread at the top of the cliff, on a steep area, unroped. I do not see cleaning off the dirt and loose rocks to be a bad thing to save some idiots life, but it is human intervention. Hard work as well. But if 1 person lives, instead of dieing at their loved ones feet.... I think that is part of the equation to look at. I do not think you proactively bolt to protect idiots or people from their stupiditdy, but it is part of the equation in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 (edited) Dwayner and his sidekick poop are all about themselves...only themselves...and they will couch their attitude in a "more ethically pure" bullshit frame. Its funny, but Kevbone's whole point in bolting is to protect people who are to follow him later...people he likely doesn't even know...yet HE is called selfish by them... Edited July 23, 2007 by RuMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Dwayner and his sidekick poop are all about themselves...only themselves...and they will couch their attitude in a "more ethically pure" bullshit frame. Its funny, but Kevbone's whole point in bolting is to protect people who are to follow him later...people he likely doesn't even know...yet HE is called selfish by them... "It's all about safety, making the wall safe for the masses." Really? Then explain how/why we need bolted routes on short, top-ropeable walls (Vantage comes to mind). That's what your buddy Kevbone wants. Ain't the top-rope a whole bunch safer? And suppose your project ain't safe without a bunch of bolts. Who says you have climb it? Why do we need so many nearly identical bolted face/slab climbs (Leavenworth comes to mind)? What are you really adding to rock climbing? Answer = another trail of trash. Everybody knows climbing ain't safe. Providing a bunch of clip-ups only encourages mass participation, thereby exposing a whole segment of the population to a dangerous passtime. Wanna make the world a safer place? Introduce all your sport climbing buddies to Nordic walking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 (edited) no none has to climb anything, actually...these days, i don't climb much of anything and am grateful for whatever i can get...whether its bolts or plastic...hell, even marymoor is cool... Come on, quit being a dick...I was explaining Kevin's point of view...its a sliding scale...grey...fuck, man, you and dwayner just make everything fucking so black and white...get a fuckin' life and take up a worthier cause... I've put up face climbing routes on gear in the late 80's that were marginally difficult for me to onsight ground up on the east coast. Later, i was contacted by other climbers who wanted to add bolts to those routes to make them "safer". They were, when i did them, kinda serious and involved cruxy climbing well above rp's and other small gear at mid .11 climbing with huge fall potential involving potential groundings (this was back when that was kinda considered hard, not cutting edge)...big deal...others wanted to climb them in a different style...do i care? NO...have at it...20 years ago, i'da told them to fuck off, i'd rather moss grew on them...now, shoot, if more people would enjoy them, what do i care?? Edited July 23, 2007 by RuMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 i know...the real issue is you feel robbed of the incredible climbing at ex 38, don't you?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 ...now, shoot, if more people would enjoy them, what do i care?? Hey Rudy, enjoy this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 (edited) Hey crispy dick, yer lookin' a little shriveled... better go buy that corvette for that impending mid life crisis... Edited July 23, 2007 by RuMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 What would be funny is to take the conversation (as circular and non-productive as it is) to the next level...insulting people and posting funny pictures which results in getting you banned! after you get banned, then you can claim that you were censured somehow! Brilliant. i'm tempted just to flush this whole thread down the toilet. Seriously, what has been argued here that hasn't already been said in the various other IB/bolt-or-not conversation threads? Have our main protagonists here actually learned something? Have the various people who have gotten their egos entangled is this conversation learned something? I know I have not heard a single thing argued that actually builds on what has already been said. It would be interesting to hear from some other people who might be reading this thread, and the usual suspects just STFU. Or...you can sit around and stroke your ego. But keep and mind that if thing get out of hand (as they are above right now), you risk getting banned...and it isn't because of your political/environmental/climbing views. Its because you can't have a civil conversation in a regulated forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 "It's all about safety, making the wall safe for the masses." Really? Then explain how/why we need bolted routes on short, top-ropeable walls (Vantage comes to mind). That's what your buddy Kevbone wants. Would you explain to me, since you seem to know……what it is I want? Thanks. Look…..it is quite simple…..in my opinion….its all about who got there first. If some dorkwad showed up and bolted the crap out of a face……I would not be the one to chop. I may not like it but it would be out of my hand……same thing goes with the other way around, where you show up to a crag and the original developers have made it a no bolt crag…..well I am not going to debate that with them. They have my respect due to they got there first. It’s all about respecting those who came before you. Like your parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 Seriously, what has been argued here that hasn't already been said in the various other IB/bolt-or-not conversation threads? I don't recall seeing a hot dog that looks like a penis being discussed in this subject previously, but I'm getting old and forgetful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 Seriously, what has been argued here that hasn't already been said in the various other IB/bolt-or-not conversation threads? You mean this? Hey Rudy, enjoy this: I don't recall seeing a hot dog that looks like a penis being discussed in this subject previously, but I'm getting old and forgetful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 got you the first time. insults have been well covered in previous threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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