carolyn Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Lead it. It's much funner that way. Be smart and protect often if it makes you feel more relaxed. The moves aren't hard - it's probably mental cruxing. Im sure I will someday. Ive always felt I do much better with less information. More info = more thinking, questioning, wondering. Obviously some beta can be helpful at times. This was just a good lesson as too how much beta is hurtful/helfpul - to ME. To each it's own egg! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 As a small sidebar... How do people interpret "Protect often" ? For me, it means primarily protecting for anything more than about a 5 or 6 ft ground fall. (Basically to protect primarily to prevent injury) On a hard (for me) crag climb, even after I'm likely out of ground fall, I usually shoot for placements that are about a body length apart. Possibly closer if a piece is marginal and I want it backed up or there is a ledge to consider, possibly further if there is little gear or if I know I'm going into a crux where I won't be able to protect, or I can see a better stance a move or two higher. I have heard of other leaders who did the Zig-Zag thing on R&D and ended up having a mini-epic, but no injuries to speak of. Rope drag is always something to be aware of when placing gear, as is the zipper effect when you start to zig-zag the rope. I think this is more that the climber wasn't ready to lead that climb than anything else. IMHO your first leads on gear should be with someone who has some extensive experience, is constantly evaluating your placements and offering advice, and most importantly, well well below your climbing limit. Those first gear leads are all about the gear, not at all about the climbing. I did mine on 4th class ground I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Royal Robbins Advanced Rock Craft. Simple yet effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 As to the earlier poster's suggestion of "protect, protect, protect", I had an experience in 2001 on the R&D that perhaps tempers that recommendation. I was belaying a beginning leader (I still to this day wonder if I could/should have done more to help protect her) who was on the first pitch of R&D and had gone a tad off route, placing pro in something of a zig-zag line, when she got to a rather large mantle move, which she then did *not* protect. She went to make the move, and the rope drag popped her back off, tumbling down quite a ways, breaking ribs and face bones and I don't want to remember what else. Of course, the real problem was putting the *wrong* pro in, and not the *right* stuff, so "protect, protect, protect" is still valid, I suppose. Communication, as always near Icicle Creek, was basically impossible. I still wonder if I perhaps should have just refused to pay out more rope when I could see she was off route. If she'd just made that mantle move, all would have been OK. Maybe. - rob it's hard to be in a situation like that. learning to lead is scary (i am a totaly chicken) the bottom line in your situation is this person told you that she felt she was experienced enough to take on this challenge. it is not your responablity as a climbing partner to judge weather she really does know what she says she knows. all you can do is trust that your climbing partner has done proper research on the route and has appropriate experience to lead the route. if you were a guide you would have to take responsablity. as climbers we all have to shoulder our own responsablity for our own ablity and our own understanding of climbing systems and how they work. uhh...i gotta call bullshit on this... bad move for the muffster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Hey Rumr, What part of Muffy's advocacy for personal responsibility are you, uh, uncomfortable with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Um, lets say Catbirdseat announced he was gonna try to onsight the Bachar-Yerian. Would you say "you go girl, I trust you have enough experience to know your own abilities, send" Or "Dude you are gonna make a big ugly splatter at the base"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Hey Rumr, What part of Muffy's advocacy for personal responsibility are you, uh, uncomfortable with? the fact that if i know someone is not up to the task because they are a beginner that i'd just say "ah well, fuck it, you're on your own" and then hold the rope... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Um, lets say Catbirdseat announced he was gonna try to onsight the Bachar-Yerian. Would you say "you go girl, I trust you have enough experience to know your own abilities, send" Or "Dude you are gonna make a big ugly splatter at the base"? actually, with catturdeat... first I'd say "Don't worry about what knot to tie as you're gonna go splat"...then i'd say "can i watch this?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I find it interesting that this was my first multi-pitch ever (as someone following). Since then, everytime I have been in lworth I have considered leading it, but wind up elsewhere. I still think it would be nostalgic to lead the entire route. Yet, all this discussion freaks me out. It makes me wonder how much information is helpful - to ME. R&D was my first multi to follow as well. i haven't been up that way in quite a long time but i would climb it again. it was s totally fun route. i just don't like to like to lead much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 (edited) Hey Rumr, What part of Muffy's advocacy for personal responsibility are you, uh, uncomfortable with? the fact that if i know someone is not up to the task because they are a beginner that i'd just say "ah well, fuck it, you're on your own" and then hold the rope... my point was... you can't know if someone is up to it or not. you can choose to not climb with that person if you think they are being an idiot. and i have done that before. but the person i chose not to climb with just found a different partner and totally had an epic. i can't make someone not climb because i don't think they are ready. i can only take myself out of the situation. p.s. i thing Rumr likes to go out of his way to disagree with me just for the entertainment factor. Edited July 7, 2007 by Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 HA!...you got that one right I just like to watch the shotgun blast of misspelled words coming my way!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 HA!...you got that one right I just like to watch the shotgun blast of misspelled words coming my way!!! and that is what i adore about you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Climbed this route in lovely conditions this past weekend. We ended up breaking it into 5 pitches, which alleviated any of the concerns about the top-most anchor: 1) Cocaine Connection (kinda exciting for 5.7, I thought -- some of the bolts seem to be farther right than needed, forcing you to leave secure featured climbing and go out onto pure friction just to make the clips....) 2) Rejoin the Regular RD route and climb a long pitch to a big ledge 3) Climb through the chimney and belay on top 4) Up the flaring hand crack and belay about 50 feet or so above it (total pitch about 100 ft)on low-angle ledge 5) Climb up easy terrain about 50 feet past the dead tree, where there are abundant anchor options (Huge,well-anchored boulder, or nice cracks) I enjoyed this route so much more than I had in the past -- maybe it was the easy climbing under lovely blue skies on a crisp fall day.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 If you are talking of the huge boulder at the top of the climb, then you should know (and every newbie reading this) is that it is NOT well anchored. It is sitting on a sloping slab with sand between the boulder and the slab. Got to be the worst boulder to make your anchor on. It should have a "do not use this boulder or die" sign on it. yeah it was a very good day in the icicle. Nice temps and pretty trees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 If the boulder is so unstable how has it managed to not be trundled off yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_m Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 The same way the one on Sharkfin sat on a near identical down-sloping sandy slab until it was loaded; when it slid 3 people died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 In this instance, size really does matter. Bigger is not always better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Anyone topping out on R and D should not consider using the boulder as an anchor. There are two perfectly good horizontal cracks (below the boulder) to the left as you climb over the final overlap. The two cracks have options for many sizes of gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 That boulder would be a fun trundle. At least, until it stopped in the middle of the road, ran over a car, or destroyed the barrier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 That boulder would be a fun trundle. At least, until it stopped in the middle of the road, ran over a car, or destroyed the barrier. all of those sound like a continuation of fun to me! :: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkporwit Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hmmm, a late-night, beer-fueled activity for the 2009 Rope Up perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Might wanna keep it separate from the RU festivities. The campground host at 8-Mile seemed to be a tad upset with us (although it really wasn't us with whom to be upset, but that's another matter entirely), and I reckon Larry the Tool would join in. Better to make it a Halloween trick or a New Year's Eve prank. That way, if anything goes wrong, we can blame it on the local high school boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Rocks fall all the time. If you spin it right you can tell people about your narrow escape! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Somewhere sometime in the not so distant past a couple of dudes were trundling rocks in a very remote area and killed someone. They were convicted of involuntary manslaughter and did time. A friend and I happened to be out in the bitterroots with a group of highschool kids that same weekend trundling rocks in a very remote area. We had to call all the kids and explain how wrong we were. Donuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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