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The Black Diamond manipulative campaign


IceIceBaby

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quote:

Originally posted by pindude:
What happened to my request to transcend the bullshit? If you are going to be blaming a company for death, and spray it to the world, you'd better be pretty darn sure and post some believable SOURCES to back your shit up.

Pindude,why don't check out the validity of my notes on history before you accuse me of lying. I don't appreciate the disparagement of my integrity.BTW, with regard to my friends at BD, they well know the history, practices, and limitations of the company. Where do you think I get this "shit" anyways?

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quote:

Originally posted by freeclimb9:

Pindude,why don't check out the validity of my notes on history before you accuse me of lying. I don't appreciate the disparagement of my integrity.BTW, with regard to my friends at BD, they well know the history, practices, and limitations of the company. Where do you think I get this "shit" anyways?

freeclimb,All I'm saying is if you are going to be a historian, you better be using a bibliography. Referring as a source to your "friends at BD" and some conversation you might have had is nothing but hearsay. Give me a real source. Grade: F, until you provide your bibliography.

pindude

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Any of the reputable manufactures will stand behind their gear. My Gregory pack busted a seam - whamo - new pack, no questions asked. BD pants failed after one outing - again, new pants, no questions asked. North Face Bibs proved worthless, bango, they took back the bibs, with only a few questions asked.

It stinks when gear fails, especially in the back country or on a climb - but let's face it, we treat this stuff pretty rough. As Will Strickland advised, inspect the gear closely b/4 purchasing and I like FreeClimb9's advice about avoiding first runs...

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quote:

Originally posted by pindude:

freeclimb,All I'm saying is if you are going to be a historian, you better be using a bibliography. Referring as a source to your "friends at BD" and some conversation you might have had is nothing but hearsay. Give me a real source. Grade: F, until you provide your bibliography.

pindude

Shit, that sucks about the "F" grade.With regard to the Kevlar cord recall, I lived it. What would I quote as a bibliographic source? I'm not familiar with the entry format. All this stuff went down in 85, or 86, and I don't take that much gingko biloba to recall expedition details on who got the chop and where. A fixed line failed. Someone died. Kevlar was blamed. I do remember that Great Pacific Iron Works reccommended kevlar cord to me in 85 for slinging hexes, by 87 that was considered to be unwise because of the proven danger, and Chouinard Equipment sold off their remaining kevlar at low, low prices around that same time. Bluewater performed testing on nylon, kevlar and spectra cord around that time, also. The kevlar turned to powder after cycling over a 10mm rotating bar. These test results were published in one of the mags, Summit, R&I, or Climbing. I can't remember which. Believe it, or not.

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quote:

Originally posted by IceIceBaby:

Eric,That was hypothetical situation But the question remainsBD makes the claims that the gear will work under these kinds of conditions I have been proven wrong under much milder conditions Where is the quality that has been advertised and if there were stricter controls, this would not happen
[hell no]

Nope, wrong on that one, too. BD advertises their Dry Tool gloves (http://www.bdel.com/compare/gloves.html) to be rated for use down to 28 degrees F, 68 degrees higher than the 40-below conditions you speculate on in your "hypothetical situation". If you're only wearing Dry Tool gloves at -40, you're asking for frostbite, whether the glove rips or not.

I find it quite helpful for BD to advertise the performance range of their gloves. However, I am a thinking person like most of us here, so I know that a temperature written on a chart can't possibly mean that there is no way anyone who wears the gloves can get frostbite unless the temp drops below the rating. I also know that gear (and all things) can break, regardless of quality controls. Anyone whose job involves making things and testing them knows that.

If "your mileage may vary" is not part of your belief system when dealing with gear, you are going to have a very hard time dealing with reality. As evidenced by your incoherent rant. [hell no]

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i think iceice and freeclimb should be partners.....

"you tied my knot right?""no, you tied mine right?""no" "well shit, who tied it?""i don't remember""but someone did, cause i remember that one time when it was -40 out, there was a knot tied""well shit, that was back in '43!""what happens if they knot that isnt tied fails?""well will find someone to blame!! cuz it can't be us!!!""we knew how to tie the knot!!""and we knew that the know was untied, but still it can't be our fault..."

tongue.gif" border="0tongue.gif" border="0[big Drink]

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quote:

Originally posted by Rodchester:
Oh I get it they sold out to the man that has been keeping us down (as climbers that is really oppresive).

Thanks for not telling me.
rolleyes.gif" border="0

Don't be joking about the MAN. He's out there, and he'll put you down if you get too uppity. wink.gif" border="0

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quote:

Originally posted by pindude:

I myself was once a young climbing goods salesman in the '80s, and still am close to the outdoor retailing world. Then, as today, salespeople--er, customer service people--are "cliniced" by the manufacturer's rep in a large group setting maybe for a couple hours every 6 months or so. They generally are not "factory trained," although if they are, they are lucky dogs. We were never offered Chouinard or BD factory-training, nor am I aware that it was offered to any of the individual employees working in other specialty shops. As far as factory is concerned, maybe a tour if we were in Ventura or SLC after the move, yes, but factory training, no. Suffice to say, the manufacturer spends precious little time teaching salespeople the culture of their company, nor can they afford to. Most of the customer service training of that man/woman or kid on the floor comes from the individual store's management, and the salesperson's own motivation. Regardless, there are always going to be good salespeople and bad salespeople. I think you got a bad one. Your example was not supportive of your argument because you equated the shop's poor salesperson with Yvon, which I think even he would take issue with. You should be able to distinguish between Yvon and his company, and a right- or wrong-headed salesperson on the floor of a retail shop. If I had gotten a second hammer with a separating head, I would have taken that back too and gotten another manufacturer's tool or my money back, which by all rights the store should have done for you. If not, then sometimes it is better to deal directly with the manufacturer to resolve CS issues.

Thanks for letting me know you're here, and not really in Bath, England. You got one on me there. I guess Bath, England doesn't equal Federal Way just as that bad salesperson doesn't equal Yvon and his company.

For details on the sale, there was a great article by Krakauer appearing in Outside, about when it happened in 1989. I'm sure you'll take great pleasure in noting I can't give you a link to the specific issue and article--Outside online has not archived their mag for issues before 1992. Bottom line, there were 3 lawsuits pending vs. Chouinard Equipment. Each of the 3 had to do with user-error, NOT company error. Yvon took his lawyer's advice to settle each of the 3 pending suits, and separate/protect his real cash cow--Patagonia--by selling majority ownership of Chouinard Equipment. He sold to his employees. Don't know if he still owns a portion, but his employees--with I think Peter Metcalf as head that whole time--have been managing it since, of course having renamed the company Black Diamond. I thought Yvon did a great job of running Chouinard Equipment, and think Metcalf and the employees are doing even better with BD.

May PP rest in peace.

-pindude

Quote from my first post to this thread: “I have virtually no experience with the new BD because of an experience I had with the old company.”

Quote from my second post to this thread: “The representative was a "factory trained" representative form CA.”

Pinhead –

My first post made clear my dealings were with the company in question. The second must have been misleading. My intent was to indicate that my contact was an “Chouinard” employee from California. He was not a salesperson at a third party retailer. Sorry if I confused you. I should note that we (the contact) were acquaintances although by no means good friends. I have no reason to think he was out and out trying to deceive me. So even if he was mistaken it is quite shocking that an employee would believe such a thing about his employer.

I should note that my replacement hammer was not the same style as the first (slightly longer shaft) and yet it began to break soon too. The fact that it too began to break shortly after use is certainly strong corroborative evidence that the engineering was poor on this item. By the way my first hammer broke while placing an anchor at the top of an aid pitch during an FA. Thank God for Zip lines!

Also I currently do not and never have lived in Federal Way or for that matter south of I-90 ( at least in Washington). Dwayner and Erik are making me rethink the Tacoma experience.

As far as holding YC responsible certainly during a period of lawsuits and risk assessment the production of a faulty hammer should have been brought to his attention. If not, then he is more of a goofball than I imagine.

Sadly you appear to know next to nothing as to the details of the formation of BD. You couldn’t even state whether it was a stock transaction or a sale of company assets. For someone who gives others the grade “F” you are certainly silly. I have no problem holding you to your own standard which you happen to fall woefully short of. I entered this as merely relating my experiences in a pub club online environment not a organized debate. To give me an “F” is plainly ridiculous. While others may engage in sport calumny on this site, I am being sincere and honest.

Peter

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Let me preface this post by saying that I work for Black Diamond. I'm the NW rep and I'm based in Washington.

I don't cruise this message board very often but I am curious to hear what climbers have to say on this thing. I learn quite a bit about what people think and say about gear and that's part of my job.

re: any product that's not fulfilling the buyer/user's expectations. BD is a pretty flexible company. Simply put, we want people to be happy with what they've spent their money on. If the person who posted the original message about the Dry Tool Gloves isn't happy (and it sure appears that they're not), by all means get them back to BD. If you bought them at a local shop or online or via catalog, figure out how to get them back BD and we'll get you a new pair or refund your money - no questions asked.

I hope this helps.

EW

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Yo Ice,

I hope you have given BD a call and a chance to make things right. I had/have an issue with some LL Bean Schoeller pants and here is want they are willing to do for me. I sent my email inquiring about 3 hours ago and here is LL Bean's response. This is service! I am sure BD will be good to you... most mfgrs will

Dear Mr. Dietsch,

Good afternoon. Thank you for contacting us regarding the pants you havereceived in order number 001120658783 001T.

I am sorry that you are not satisfied with your Stretch Schoeller DryskinGuide Pants, item number WJ3263732637. We do not want you to have anythingfrom us that is not 100% satisfactory.

You are welcome to return it to us. Please fill out and include the returnpaperwork with the merchandise. If you no longer have your return invoice,please include a note with the following information:

- Your complete name, address, and telephone number- Approximately when it was purchased- The reason for the return (this could help us improve the product in thefuture)- What action you would like us to take (i.e. exchange, refund, or GiftCertificate)

Our address is:

L.L.Bean Returns Department3 Campus Drive Freeport ME 04034.

You can return your package by whatever method you prefer. Please allowapproximately 2-3 weeks for us to process your return or exchange.

I apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you. Please let us know ifwe may be of any further assistance. You can reach us at any time by emailor by telephone.

Sincerely,Donna D. L.L.Bean Customer Servicewww.llbean.com1-800-441-5713

--Original Message--

From: wesley dietschSubject: Returns and Repairs

Dear LL Bean,I have a pair of the "Stretch Schoeller Dryskin Guide Pants". These pants aresimply the best I have ever owned. The fabric is just amazing. Yesterday Inoticed that the factory stiching in the rear is starting to come undone.These pants have been used 3 times total since I recieved them in January,here is my dilema.The first time I used them I put a hole in one of the lower legs with acrampon point. I repaired them so they are not in perfect shape, however Ifeel that the factory stitching that is now coming undone needs to beaddressed as soon as possible.What do you suggest I do to have this corrected.

Sincerely,

Wes

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In case some thought all hope was lost. I just called BD to find out where to send my Android leashes. I got the recall last month and I am finally getting off my butt to send them back for a unflawed pair. The guy says "I'll put pair in the mail today." I am thinking cool! I was thinking I would have to mail the faulty pair back and spend $3 or $4 doing so. Not so.

Then I tell the fella I bent a section in one of my Eldorado tent poles. I was wondering how much it would cost for a section. No worries because he said he would mail that out with the leashes at no cost. No questions asked and it was all pilot error.It doesn't get much better than that in my book. Jedi

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My tale of woe with BDEL:

I bought a Bibler Bombshelter for a climb of Denali. Three days before we fly to Alaska we're practicing setting it up in the yard whilst wearing heavy gloves. The tent pole shoots through my hand as I try to fit it in the corner and plunges right through the bottom of the tent. 5" or so gash in the tent floor.

Oh, and its a Saturday.

I call BDEL all freaked out and the guy says Fedex it to them and they will make sure I get it before we leave. "Are you sure?" I ask him because I;'d rather go with duct tape then not have the tent. He gives me the BDEL fedex account (gratis shipping), I get it out, they stitch a patch over the tear and I have it back by 9 Monday morning.

If that isn't customer service I dont know what is. I guess it helps to pay 1K.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is something I just recently noticed. BD claims their Camalots are the "strongest camming units available to man" and rated to 16kN (according to the BD catolouge)

CCH Aliens are rated to 16.45kN in the latest info from Mountain Gear. Anyone else notice this??

I sure wish CCH made some larger sizes. frown.gif" border="0

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  • 1 year later...

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