Jman Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 quote: Originally posted by fredrogers: It does have its limitations: their current product offering is more like 100 wt fleece than a base layer IMHO. Not great for areobic activities in anything but cold (20F or lower) weather...The cut of their current garments does leave a little to be desired- kinda formless and the natural white sure leaves something to be desired (get the olive or the black). The sleeves also tend to bag a bit when they've been stretched out. It's also twice as much $$ as even capaline... a hard swalow at first, but worth it. Actually, I have two long sleeve Smartwool shirts and I would agree - they are much too warm for anything but sub-freezing temps. I tend to sweat quite a bit when working hard with a pack, so the shirt ends up totally soaked (in cool/cold temps). So I think I'm better off just wearing a light, short-sleeved Coolmax shirt or something. And, yeah, you other guys are right: most of the technical details really don't matter. I was really just trying to understand the general principle of what the ideal base layer should accomplish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted March 26, 2002 Author Share Posted March 26, 2002 So what's the ideal base layer? I'm confused by the seemingly contradictory propaganda by manufacturers. For example, Smartwool says that synthetics fibers "do not breathe" but can "only 'wick' moisture away" or "only transfer moisture and have no ability to evaporate it." Whereas their garments, because of their "natural breathabilty, will evaporate that moisture quickly." Yet, Smartwool "wicks moisture off the skin’s surface 27% faster than any synthetic" while it also "can absorb 30% of its dry weight before feeling damp." What's up with that? Doesn't sound too comfortable - cotton breathes and absorbs quite a bit of moisture too, but it doesn't mean I'd be comfortable in it. And then, it supposedly insulates better because "each fiber creates millions of microscopic air pockets that give it “loft”." Well, I really don't feel a need for insulation in a base layer - that's what insulation LAYERS are for. OK, so now how about Capilene? They state that other untreated polyesters are hydrophobic or water resistant. But in Capilene the surface of each fiber "has been chemically altered to make them hydrophilic" or water absorbant and hence "moisture lifts, spreads and disperses, evaporating into either the air or outer layers." [sorry, I originally had my fact confused and hence edited the post.] What does everybody else use/prefer? Do you want a fabric that absorbs or repells moisture to be comfortable? (Note: I'm not interested in this for insulation capabilities. That's a whole different topic and a completely different fiber for a completely different purpose.) [ 03-25-2002: Message edited by: Jman ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayborbon Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Jman, Most of this stuff does not matter to me or most people I climb with. I just wear whatever I have available. I have a smartwool shirt and a driclime shirt and some other shirts. They are shirts, nothing more if you ask me. If you sweat you get wet. I dont believe or even think about that stuff when I am climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 I have used an array of synthetics and some woll based products. I am happy with the various synthetic products I am presently using. My GENERAL view of wool is that it is an insulation layer that works well (even when wet)but as with all products it has limitations. It tends to be heavy and while it certainly wicks, it absorbs too much moisture in the process. yes it still insulates when wet, but it gets heavier and face it your still wet. I know some are hot on the newer wool based products such as Smartwool. I have not used these, so I cannot comment on them specifically. However, I would imagine if it is engineered correctly and with new processes, maybe wool has a place. I know Jim Nelson is a pretty big proponent of the Smartwool stuff. I would be interested to hear someone's informed (experienced) opinin on the use of the smartwool. Anyone with expedition style use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrogers Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Jman: So what's the ideal base layer? I'm confused by the seemingly contradictory propaganda by manufacturers.For example , Smartwool says that synthetics fibers "do not breathe" but can "only 'wick' moisture away" or "only transfer moisture and have no ability to evaporate it." Whereas their garments, because of their "natural breathabilty, will evaporate that moisture quickly." Yet, Smartwool "wicks moisture off the skin’s surface 27% faster than any synthetic" while it also "can absorb 30% of its dry weight before feeling damp." What's up with that? Doesn't sound too comfortable - cotton breathes and absorbs quite a bit of moisture too, but it doesn't mean I'd be comfortable in it. And then, it supposedly insulates better because "each fiber creates millions of microscopic air pockets that give it “loft”." Well, I really don't feel a need for insulation in a base layer - that's what insulation LAYERS are for. OK, so now how about Capilene? They state that other untreated polyesters are hydrophobic or water resistant. But in Capilene the surface of each fiber "has been chemically altered to make them hydrophilic" or water absorbant and hence "moisture lifts, spreads and disperses, evaporating into either the air or outer layers." [sorry, I originally had my fact confused and hence edited the post.] What does everybody else use/prefer? Do you want a fabric that absorbs or repells moisture to be comfortable? (Note: I'm not interested in this for insulation capabilities. That's a whole different topic and a completely different fiber for a completely different purpose.) [ 03-25-2002: Message edited by: Jman ] Jman- It is really confusing. I worked (no longer doing so) with SmartWool for about a year- writing copy among other things- so I got to study all the technical stuff that we never wanted consumers to try and sort out on their own. To better try and explain how wool works at evaporating moisture, it 'uses' body heat to begin the evaoporative process while the moisture is contained in the fibers of the fabric themselves- rather than waiting for the moisture to be transported to the exterior of the garment and then evaporated as with synthetics. It simply beings the process a little earlier on... Wool will also keep you warm when it is damp or wet- something I have found synthetics not to do as well (I have Capaline, Polartec, Lifa and Hot Chillys own blend). To SmartWool's major credit- it does not absorb or retain odors as well as synthetics. I've used it for 4-5 days in a row and found it to be a little ripe, but nothing compared to poly-pew-palene. Even more so after a wash. It does have its limitations: their current product offering is more like 100 wt fleece than a base layer IMHO. Not great for areobic activities in anything but cold (20F or lower) weather. Perfect for stop and start activities like skiing though: I wear their zip-neck long sleeve with a shell for snowboarding and find that it usually about all I need. The cut of their current garments does leave a little to be desired- kinda formless and the natural white sure leaves something to be desired (get the olive or the black). The sleeves also tend to bag a bit when they've been stretched out. It's also twice as much $$ as even capaline... a hard swalow at first, but worth it. They will be expanding their product line this fall to include some mid and outerwear (scholler with a wool liner), as well as a lightweight series that I hope is more like a baselayer. The early product samples I saw were quite promising. Jim Nelson has the best selection I have seen in the state- and cheaper than REI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayborbon Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Exactly what I am getting at is in RodChester's last words. If you are not on some grand expedition or facing gruesome weather than it wont matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvis Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Can't beat a Patagucci mid or lt weight zip pullover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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