wdietsch Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 fyi.... does not sound all that encouraging ... especailly since I am getting ready to go to a 8.5mm x 60m 1/2 rope setup http://www.barrabes.com/typ/articulos.asp?id_articulo=2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier_Wolfscastle Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 I've used this technique on rock many times with 8.5mm ropes. I have found it to work well. Any fall was immediately stopped with the self locking action of the reverso. I have not tried it on ice climbs though. In this case, it does seem logical that a wet skinny rope will provide less friction. Guess you just have to add additional friction with brake hand or other method. As far as the rope being cut over a sharp edge, I find this situation only to be a serious threat to the leader, who may fall over a sharp edge, but since the leader always leads with two lines, that's not as much a problem. I suppose it is possible to severe a single line while TR'ing, but it would probably require the follower to take a long swinging fall over a sharp edge. Of course, a fall of this type could be avoided by the leader protecting the route in manner to avoid the second from taking a pendiluim swing fall. The biggest problem I have seen with the reverso, is lowering someone who is hanging on the rope. It can be done, but not easily. I only use this technique on easier ground to save time for a three climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 It sounds like you expect the reverso to be a light weight gri-gri or something. While the lock-off function is a benefit, I personally don't expect it to allow total inattention. I used a reverso on my latest climbing trip to Canada and found some benefits and some problems. For belaying the second, it was nice to be able to arrive at a belay, set up the reverso on the main anchor point and belay my partner and be able to put on a jacket, dig in my pack for food or water, etc. I never really let go of the rope, but wasn't concerned about proper belay technique as with an ATC. We also did a top rope in Marble canyon where you rap in and climb out. 2 climbers went down and I belayed them both simultaneously from the top. One climber was faster than the other and it was nice to be able to shift attention from one rope to the other and not be so concerned about how I was handling one rope, while pulling in slack on the other. I never really let go of one rope altogether however. Personally I find it hard to believe a wet slipperry rope would keep slipping for very long and/or would stop quickly as soon as you grabbed it on the belay end. I'd like to hear more personal experience. The problems I encountered had mstly to do with the fact I use a harness (alpine bod) without a belay loop. Arriving at the belay from a lead, you are supposed to set up the main anchor point with another pearabiner and then simply move the belay devise to that. The biner on your harness becomes the locking biner for bringing up the second. With a belay loop, I imagine it is fairly easy to unclip from the loop and move it to the anchor. But with the bod harness, it's really difficult to unclip because your belay biner goes thru the waist loop and the part that comes up thru your legs. I was thinking of just having two locking biners, one that stays on the harness and then clip the reverso and another locking biner to the first biner. But I don't know if 2 locking biners would be a good idea. ANy thoughts? Maybe I should get a "real" harness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted March 27, 2002 Author Share Posted March 27, 2002 quote: Originally posted by David Parker: It sounds like you expect the reverso to be a light weight gri-gri or something. Not.... get a real harness, I shelved my Alpine Bod for the very same reasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 for rainier, Just thought of what you said about adding friction to the system. I haven't tried it yet or read about it in a publication so everyone don't bust my chops too much if it doesn't work. I know you can add friction to a rappel situation by adding extra biners to the rappel device. (on the bight of the rope) It works by making the bends in the rope more exagerated and therefore more friction. Could you add more friction to the auto lock by adding more biners to the rope too? The reverso and gi-gi lock off by the the load strand pinching off the brake strand, therefore being a "brake hand". That is how you can let go of the device. By the way, both of these are hands free device, which means the manufacturer says that you don't need to hold onto the brake line. Anyway, by adding biners to the rope, it looks like the rope has a larger bend and therefore more friction without affecting it's ability to pinch and brake. If any of you are in a technical situation which have access to pull testing machines, I would like to see if there is a increase in holding power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Yeah, that double-biner idea might work to increase friction. Another idea is to have a separate locking biner for each of the two strands the two followers are climbing on. That way, the two can move independently and safely, each on their own locking biner. Just an idea, haven't actually tried this yet. I do own and like the Reverso very much, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier_Wolfscastle Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 If the reverso didn't completely lock by itself while belaying from above, I'd just add a directional biner before the anchor to induce a zig-zag in the rope. Forcing the rope to do a 180 around a biner a few feet away from the reverso. This will add alot of friction. Small downside: If your second(s) are climbing fast, you will get a workout pulling the ropes up with the added friction. Another option, you could also just hang on to the brake like an atc, but that will make rope manangement harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Since the reverso belays straight off the anchor, I'm having a hard time envisioning how to make the zig zag effect you mention. Would you have the belay rope come up through a biner, then back down to the Reverso? Hard for me to see how to do this while keeping it in line with the anchor's direction of pull. Please forgive if I'm being obtuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Since the reverso belays straight off the anchor, I'm having a hard time envisioning how to make the zig zag effect you mention. Would you have the belay rope come up through a biner, then back down to the Reverso? Hard for me to see how to do this while keeping it in line with the anchor's direction of pull. Please forgive if I'm being obtuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier_Wolfscastle Posted March 28, 2002 Share Posted March 28, 2002 Yeah, sorry for confusion. This is assuming you have a upward pull directional piece already below anchor that could be used to feed the rope back up into the reverso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted March 28, 2002 Share Posted March 28, 2002 I have my doubts as to using the 2 biner (1 for each rope) method. I'm not sure they will align properly as there is limited space. I'll check it out and report back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromage Posted March 28, 2002 Share Posted March 28, 2002 A superior device to the Reverso is the New Alp Magic. I bought this handy little belay plate in Chamonix (never seen it in this country, but check the Euro gear shops online- Barrabes, Telemark-Pyrenees, and 3S- it's cheap ~$12) and it is the most useful thing ever on multi-pitch climbs. I lead on doubles and belaying seconds off the anchor with this plate is the safest and most convenient thing I have ever tried. It is truly hands-free, so you CAN belay two seconds simultaneously and pick your nose. The only drawback is that it is function-specific. I have to carry a separate rap device and lowering climbers on the belay plate is a bit awkward, but the safety and simplicity of the whole setup is unbeatable. A la prochain- Fromage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted March 28, 2002 Author Share Posted March 28, 2002 FWIW this site has got to be the single most comprehesive collection of info on belay/rap devices I have ever seen on one site http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted March 29, 2002 Share Posted March 29, 2002 Fromage: Is this the belay device you got in Europe? http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted March 29, 2002 Author Share Posted March 29, 2002 you got to check this out! http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Glance.html this guys collection of rap/descend/ascend devices probably weights 10X more than all my climbing shit put together sorry for the thread creep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted March 29, 2002 Share Posted March 29, 2002 fromage, last time i was climbing in france (last january) the new alp plaquettes were getting harder to find. a french guy i met in briancon told me that the new alp is going to be discontinued, because apparently everyone is taking to the reverso. thats just word of mouth, but he does own a gear shop... so i guess the moral of the story is, dont drop your new alp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayborbon Posted April 2, 2002 Share Posted April 2, 2002 This piece is hard to manage unless it is at or higher than chest level with 2 ropes. With one rope fine but you need to keep in mind how to set it up.. Either way though it is much better than the BD ATC since it is more multi purpose once you know it's flaws and how to work around them. I have not used it on icy ropes yet.. Make sure you toy with it. If my belay was at waist or chest level with 2 ropes it seemed to suck more. However if I used it at head or above levels managing ropes (2) was easier......... Study more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted April 2, 2002 Share Posted April 2, 2002 New alp or reverso Ray? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayborbon Posted April 2, 2002 Share Posted April 2, 2002 Reverso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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