tvashtarkatena Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 (edited) Trip: Darrington - Total Soul, Westward Ho Date: 5/17/2007 Trip Report: James (jhamaker) and I went back to Darrington yesterday for a second fix of uncut friction. James forgot the beta, so we got on what we think was Total Soul (7 pitches, 5.11a). Whatever it was, it was a great route on that superb Darrington granite. Correction: we rechecked the guidebook and found out that the 4th pitch that weenie boy here backed down on and that James sent was the 5.11 variation. Kudos to James for grunting that one out! Bolts indicate a route, right? Total Soul (3’Oclock Rock) The base is still shrouded in a snow fan. Recommended for the approach: Paleolithic technology and even older rock shoes Yosemite without the grounds crew. Rapping from the top of 3 Oclock Rock The following foggy morning we headed up the Granite Sidewalk for Westward Ho (5 pitches, 5.9). This is the most sustained, pure friction climb either of us had ever done; perfect for people who’ve lost use of both their hands. James did some fine lead work on this one. Hauling my fat ass up the Granite Sidewalk (Blueberry Hill) Even the people at Value Village weren't sure what the hell those Care Bear things are on James' shirt. Granite Sidewalk Dude, while your fucking with your cordelet, I’m down here freezing my ass off. Pitch 3, Westward Ho (Blueberry Hill) Gear Notes: For the base of 3 O'clock Rock or your uncooperative partner: A stout cudgel. Total Soul: gear to 2.5", 8 quick draws, some slings. A couple of tricam and ball slider placements. Westward Ho: a few small stoppers and cams, 12 quick draws, slings, magnifying glasses. Approach Notes: A bit of snow at the base of 3 O'clock Rock. 2 washes enroute to Blueberry hill, passable by Outback. Edited May 19, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanman Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Good to see people getting some fine slabbage in Clear Creek - It sounds like all the anchors were in place on WH? We usually lose a few during winter due to the bowling alley effect that provides for surface texture on that one. M. Hanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 18, 2007 Author Share Posted May 18, 2007 The WH and bolts anchors are all there, with a few dings. One of the TS anchors appeared to have experienced a bit of lightning strike, but nothing fatal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamaker Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Brought stoppers to sling bolt studs, did'nt need them. Could have used a small wrench though. Many many of the nuts are comming loose. Mabey some lock-tight would be in order too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 We've been wondering about what is causing them to loosen. It seems unlikely that the nut is unwinding, so just what is going on? Could it be that water collects in the bottom of the hole and freezes, expanding, and pushing the bolt out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekend_Climberz Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Why don't you guys get jobs!!!1! Nice pics and poignant TR. Love'n it :tup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 18, 2007 Author Share Posted May 18, 2007 We've been wondering about what is causing them to loosen. It seems unlikely that the nut is unwinding, so just what is going on? Could it be that water collects in the bottom of the hole and freezes, expanding, and pushing the bolt out? We caught a zombie Jesus peering out from the slide cedar. Then again a glancing blow from a rock to the nut (!) might do it. If the bolts are epoxied in, how would the water get into the hole? Granite is somewhat permiable, but not that much. One word: Locktite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtveld Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 Way to cruise a couple of Darrington classics! My buddy Andy and I had a good ol time on Westward Ho last Saturday, brushing a bit of dirt and moss off along the way. Definitely some sustained slabbin without the typical mini-chickenheads. The first and fourth pitches felt a bit stout for 5.9, but could have just been the season’s first slab outing. How did the grades seem coming off Total Soul? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanman Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 Tvash- those bolts in Westward Ho are not epoxy anchors, they are 3/8" Powers ss wedge anchors, as is the modern typical bolt used in DTown. Please do not use locktite on the threads. If freeze thaw is the mechanism for the nuts loosening, locking the nut on will result in a spinner come next season (without the ability to retighten or maintain the hanger if it gets damaged by rockfall). Here is a pretty good bolt thread over on Supertaco http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=374939 I have observed the need for annual retightening on many of the DTown routes we have used wedge anchors on. During install, most of these were overdrilled to allow sinking the stud should replacement become necessary. The frozen pocket/ice wedging scenario may explain this phenomenon. M. Hanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 20, 2007 Author Share Posted May 20, 2007 No worries, we didn't use any locktite. Just throwing out a suggestion. As an aside, Locktite isn't an epoxy; you can easily remove a nut with Locktite on it, but if the problem is freeze/melt, locking the nut is the wrong solution. OK, another stupid idea for preventing water from getting into the bolt hole in the first place without epoxy: silicone caulk. Remains flexible and allows bolt replacement as needed. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 It's messy, and it doesn't really work, the seal will always fail at some point. Silicone doesn't adhere all that well to steel anyway. Caulking makes a poor primary waterproofing strategy. Glue in bolts would solve the water issue, but would be a bigger replacement problem with the annual avalanche problem. Best to just carry a wrench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterMo Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 As an aside, Locktite isn't an epoxy; you can easily remove a nut with Locktite on it True with the blue Loctite, not true with the red Loctite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 21, 2007 Author Share Posted May 21, 2007 (edited) Sounds like a line from the "May Fix" trilogy. What about wrapping bolt hangers in Ziplocks? Or... Edited May 21, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klar404 Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 A shot of aiding on a red drink umbrella would be most excellent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 OK, another stupid idea for preventing water from getting into the bolt hole in the first place without epoxy: silicone caulk. Remains flexible and allows bolt replacement as needed. Thoughts? There was a published study in "Climbing" circa 1991-1993, by a BSME which stated that caulking in anchors could and would lead to a greater and quicker degree of degradation. I wish I could do a better job of providing references. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shapp Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 regardless of all the techno B.S. (well I heard this and I read that), hanman has actually placed a shiz load of anchors around Darrington and been actively evaluating them for several years, so I would tend to follow his advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 25, 2007 Author Share Posted May 25, 2007 Hanman + other friends of Darrington are to be commended for some truly fine work in an amazing area. Where else can you climb pitch after pitch of perfect granite with alpine views in complete solitude less than 2 hours from a major city? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Hanman is full of funny ideas though. Who else believes the label on a package of "boat rope," proclaiming it to be stronger than steel? And don't get him started on galvanaic corrosion. As to the holes, we think there might be a future with the use of neoprene roofing washers, but I did read or hear about the same study as Mr. McKillop several years ago and I wonder what the reason for such a result might be and whether it would apply to the use of washers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 25, 2007 Author Share Posted May 25, 2007 I can't think of a mechanism by which an elastomeric washer would degrade a bolt placement. It would increase the bending moment by the thickness of the washer when placed under the hanger, but that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Perhaps it's the trapping of water that inevitably makes it's way past the seal that is the issue. The bolt would never dry out but essentially be perpetually submerged. Hey, maybe that jump start the galvanic corrosion and generate a noticeable current. How many wet siliconed bolt placements would have to be joined in series to power a Hilti? We should get Mark working on this ASAP, publish the study in the next AAJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 25, 2007 Author Share Posted May 25, 2007 Would you lead on #10 Romex or twin #12 Romex? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanman Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 In the works fer sher. Ya'll have a good w/e -I'm going to Squire Creek Pass to begin galvanic leachate studies of the local batholith. MH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 If you and your daughters put up a new route while you are up there, you can call it "Dancing with the stars." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamaker Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 I can't picture the bolt design used in Westward Ho. Would backing the nut off - flush w/ the bolt, then re-hammering the bolt, then tightening the nut be good or bad? What size wrench do I need for the nuts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanman Posted May 28, 2007 Share Posted May 28, 2007 Heres a link for the ss bolts on Westward Ho, Dark Rythm, Rainman, Total Soul etc http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/07424.pdf At this point, I think hammering the studs back into the hole may potentially produce a stud that spins. As long as the minimum embedment is intact, just a lite snug down with a 9/16" wrench is probably a good idea. Practice with a torque wrench before doing this- or the bolt can be overtorqued and damaged. Or- send me a PM of loose nuts/anchor damage and I'll put it on the to do list- I get up there many times throughout the year. M. Hanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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