G-spotter Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 8 pages of nutz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Joseph, my point was that it's not Leland Windham (who is not "merely" a sport climber btw) who is advocating for Via Ferrata. I can understand having issues with some of his routes, but I don't see him as point man for those type of installations, and IB is not some kind of gateway drug. I do think you're wrong about the direction that Via Ferrata development comes from. It may come from gym owners, business folks in search of new revenue streams in a competitive market, but not gym climbers. I can easily see the direct connection between gyms and obsessively safe sport climbs, but Via Ferrata is a very different thing. Gym climbs are still about athletic endeavors, moving up through the grades, and difficulty is an integral part. They're all about the numbers and grades. There may be a philosophical connection between gym climbing and via ferrat on the basis of perceived safety, but that's no more direct than the idea that the Pope and Kim Jong Il are the same by virtue of the concept of strong central individual leadership. The people I see in gyms are not looking for the easiest way to the top. Of course, if I'm wrong, you're more than welcome to tell me "I told you so" when we're in the old folks home together, and I'll owe you a shot of Geritol. To the top...a climber with a brain and no apparant ego Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 6, 2007 Author Share Posted June 6, 2007 8 pages of nutz Mine says 18 pages....get with the program broham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicoli11 Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Infinite Poop Smear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 6, 2007 Author Share Posted June 6, 2007 Infinite Poop Smear :lmao: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 23 pitches of bolts....how can a REAL climber not want to climb it? Real, meaning one without an ego. A REAL climber, eh? What a load of crap. And, I'm guessing, the "real, meaning one without an ego" is to explain a climber who makes no judgments and leaves his ethics behind while climbing the route...a rather idyllic notion you seem to see fit to apply largely in defense of the unrestricted use of bolts. Perhaps, instead of "REAL climber", you might use the phrase a climber unconcerned with ethics, but simply enjoys climbing. Your prolific and broad-brush use of the term "ego", of late, no longer helps you, but rather, it portrays that you know only a coloquial or connotative definition that you're beating into the ground. My, admittedly, archaic definition of a "REAL" climber would include: someone who delights in climbing a route less traveled, does so in fashion that is nearly undetectable to a subsequent party, and installs a bolt as an absolute last resort accompanied by a pinch of regret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 I don't think we are in imminent danger of IB becoming a Via Ferrata in the traditional sense. Discussions of IB seem to never much get into the fact that the route was illegally drilled in a wilderness area. It's only by the grace of underfunding and the fact that the local land managers seem to not care much that the route is still bolted.* *my understanding is that the access trail is a much bigger problem than the hilti problem in the eyes of the land managers. Both are verboten, but the trail is high-profile due to publicity. There have been fishermen's and climber's trails since, before and after Wilderness designation that have never caused problems, but this trail is considered a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Now that I see I missed Off's comments a ways back... ----------------------------------------------------------- Joseph, my point was that it's not Leland Windham (who is not "merely" a sport climber btw) who is advocating for Via Ferrata. I can understand having issues with some of his routes, but I don't see him as point man for those type of installations, and IB is not some kind of gateway drug. It's not any specific climb which is a 'gateway' drug so much as climbs like IB represent a spike in awareness. It's more about each such climb's contribution to the rapid growth of a very judeo-christian / consumer mentality of "it's all here for you and I to exploit as we desire". These days that mentality is seeded and fostered by gyms where routes are essentially sold as a 'product' or commodity whose purchase conveys a certain entitlement and rights to the buyer. In that bargain, buyers inherently expect routes to be 'available' to them, to be provided in a 'safe' condition, and to be 'new' with some periodic regularity. The focus in a climbing gym is entirely consumer-oriented as in, "it's all about you, and these surfaces are here exclusively for your entertainment". The problem is, that sets up a mindset of entitlement and expectation folks carry with them [without question] when they start heading outdoors - they then view outdoor surfaces through the same consumer lens of entitlement and expectation. To some extent you can't really blame them given that's how and what we teach them now. I do think you're wrong about the direction that Via Ferrata development comes from. It may come from gym owners, business folks in search of new revenue streams in a competitive market, but not gym climbers. I can easily see the direct connection between gyms and obsessively safe sport climbs, but Via Ferrata is a very different thing. Gym climbs are still about athletic endeavors, moving up through the grades, and difficulty is an integral part. They're all about the numbers and grades. There may be a philosophical connection between gym climbing and via ferrat on the basis of perceived safety, but that's no more direct than the idea that the Pope and Kim Jong Il are the same by virtue of the concept of strong central individual leadership. The people I see in gyms are not looking for the easiest way to the top. The direct line between them is the inherent and growing sense of entitlement to climb both foster. Now that climbing has become embedded in popular culture, more folks desire and seek this entertainment, right-of-passage, or identity branding - it is slowly becoming a cultural entitlement and 'right' to climb. The rub, however, is what comes with that growing sense of entitlement is the assumption or assertion of a right to have the rock altered to provide a recreational equivelant of ADA access - basically, that all people, regardless of ability, have a right to climb. And while I agree with that in principal, what I totally disagree with is the notion that right includes an entitlement to the rock being altered specifically so they can exercise that right - that the rock [of course] will be altered and outfitted to suit their [lack of] abilities. That's a very, very slippery slope and one you could see coming clear as a bell as early as '75 in the very nervous eyes of all the soon-to-be-sport-climbers hanging out in clutches in Eldo while outwardly looking so totally rad and cool. Once gyms hit the scene it eventually stepped up a notch (or down depending on your perspective) with today's mass expectation of 'safely' bolted sport climbs; a disinclination towards mixed routes; and pressures for retrobolting (see the RC.com retrobolting thread). As the media and pop culture get further saturated, and things like the gym industry's current marketing effort to push competitive climbing in schools takes root, it just ups the ante and social exposure. At some point in the growth curve of that socialization of climbing and sense of entitlement, Via Ferratas will take root with a constituency in a sort of 'escape from mobile carnival climbing walls', to [private] outdoor theme park settings, and on to the point they will eventually escape into the wild no differently than sports climbs, viruses, and GM-altered crops have been all naturally wont to do. I just don't buy the argument Via Ferratas will stay a Euro thing. Of course, if I'm wrong, you're more than welcome to tell me "I told you so" when we're in the old folks home together, and I'll owe you a shot of Geritol. Make that an Old Bushmills when the day comes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTM Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 It's not any specific climb which is a 'gateway' drug so much as climbs like IB represent a spike in awareness. It's more about each such climb's contribution to the rapid growth of a very judeo-christian / consumer mentality of "it's all here for you and I to exploit as we desire". These days that mentality is seeded and fostered by gyms where routes are essentially sold as a 'product' or commodity whose purchase conveys a certain entitlement and rights to the buyer. In that bargain, buyers inherently expect routes to be 'available' to them, to be provided in a 'safe' condition, and to be 'new' with some periodic regularity. The focus in a climbing gym is entirely consumer-oriented as in, "it's all about you, and these surfaces are here exclusively for your entertainment". The problem is, that sets up a mindset of entitlement and expectation folks carry with them [without question] when they start heading outdoors - they then view outdoor surfaces through the same consumer lens of entitlement and expectation. To some extent you can't really blame them given that's how and what we teach them now. manifest destiny... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 (edited) 23 pitches of bolts....how can a REAL climber not want to climb it? Real, meaning one without an ego. Dude, Kev, I'm getting so sick of your "if you don't like bolts, it's ego" thing. Take hiking...my wife is an avid hiker. Does that mean she would enjoy walking the length of 405, hiking along the shoulder? I mean, any REAL hiker would LOVE hiking along a freeway, right? God, I want to like you but sometimes you sound like such a dickface. I didn't realize you were such a sporto. Edited June 6, 2007 by robmcdan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 8 pages of nutz Mine says 18 pages....get with the program broham. Yeah! mine use to do that Go to preferences change # of posts per page back to 25 default Can someone find Joseph H a life or we could pitch in and buy him a BJ ...frontal labotmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 6, 2007 Author Share Posted June 6, 2007 My, admittedly, archaic definition of a "REAL" climber would include: someone who delights in climbing a route less traveled, does so in fashion that is nearly undetectable to a subsequent party, and installs a bolt as an absolute last resort accompanied by a pinch of regret. Nice....that would be your definition. And what a charming definition. I would like to thank the morals and rock police for giving his speach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 6, 2007 Author Share Posted June 6, 2007 23 pitches of bolts....how can a REAL climber not want to climb it? Real, meaning one without an ego. Dude, Kev, I'm getting so sick of your "if you don't like bolts, it's ego" thing. Take hiking...my wife is an avid hiker. Does that mean she would enjoy walking the length of 405, hiking along the shoulder? I mean, any REAL hiker would LOVE hiking along a freeway, right? God, I want to like you but sometimes you sound like such a dickface. I didn't realize you were such a sporto. You have me wrong friend. "if you don't like bolts, it's ego" thing. I never said that. I was saying in some circumstances where chopping is prevalent, ego sometimes takes a role in it. I am very much not a sporto. I climb whatever is open. Hope we get to climb sometime in the future and take the kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Kevbone I think part of your problem is you need to get out and go climbing now and not just sit around and mope on the internet. I have a number of friends who are married with kids and yet they still get out to climb. Sure they don't get out all the time, but they do get out. I bet your attitude would get better if you got out some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 6, 2007 Author Share Posted June 6, 2007 Kevbone I think part of your problem is you need to get out and go climbing now and not just sit around and mope on the internet. I have a number of friends who are married with kids and yet they still get out to climb. Sure they don't get out all the time, but they do get out. I bet your attitude would get better if you got out some. Thanks AK....but what exactly is my problem? I am not “moping”. I state my opinion….you state yours…..that’s how it works….we all can’t agree on everything. But….I do agree with you I need to climb more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Can someone find Joseph H a life or we could pitch in and buy him a BJ ...frontal labotmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Kev: there is talking and there is doing. My thoughts on Infinite Bliss: More do. Not talk. ___________________________________________________ I'm about to put the metal in my mouth reading this PAINFUL F*EN THREAD. Especially thinking that a near identical thread happened last year when you asked for info on this route. There was only talk then, no do. It reminds me of a kennel full of dogs all barking. Just Do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 just do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Actually, the wife and I keep each other quite content in that regard, and unlike the two of you, if I died tomorrow I could actually claim to have had a life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 ...if I died tomorrow I could actually claim to have had a life. ...albeit a nasty, short, angst-ridden, hypocritical, and hyper-critical pleasure cruise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 (edited) If I died tomorrow, some poor sumbeeotch would have to claim my body. Edited June 6, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 6, 2007 Author Share Posted June 6, 2007 Kev: there is talking and there is doing. My thoughts on Infinite Bliss: More do. Not talk. ___________________________________________________ I'm about to put the metal in my mouth reading this PAINFUL F*EN THREAD. Especially thinking that a near identical thread happened last year when you asked for info on this route. There was only talk then, no do. It reminds me of a kennel full of dogs all barking. Just Do. As far are "just do"....im working on it..... Last years thread was a serious inquiry. I got pounded by the jerks who moralized up and down about "why" I wanted to climb this route. I dont care what they think. And they me? You rule Bill.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 ...albeit a nasty, short, angst-ridden, hypocritical, and hyper-critical pleasure cruise. I suppose if thirty three years of climbing that is still solidly in sync with the words and values I express here is either short or hypocritical then so be it. If preserving trad climbing values and venues is 'hyper-critical' then, in the same vein as being called nasty by the likes of you, I'm quite proud of the badge... P.S. Oh, and angst-ridden? Hmmmm, let me get back to you after my bj and nap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 6, 2007 Author Share Posted June 6, 2007 I suppose if thirty three years of climbing that is still solidly in sync with the words and values I express here is either short or hypocritical then so be it. If preserving trad climbing values and venues is 'hyper-critical' then, in the same vein as being called nasty by the likes of you, I'm quite proud of the badge... P.S. Oh, and angst-ridden? Hmmmm, let me get back to you after my bj and nap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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