catbirdseat Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 When I belay, I usually use a tube type belay device on a harness with a belay loop. When I belay a leader, or someone on top rope I orient the rope so that the tail comes out of the device towards the ground. I like this orientation because when lowering, it allows me to use either hand or both hands and doesn't twist the rope. If I catch a fall, my body may be jerked upwards relative to my hand which will move into a locked off postion. Furthermore, I like to keep my hand a few inches from the device at all times so that if there is a fall with slippage, the hand isn't pulled into the device. I sometimes watch other people belay with the rope coming out of the top of the device. They either torque the rope to one side or the other. The disadvantages are that it twists the rope (when lowering) and that it doesn't allow you to switch hands. I watched someone I didn't know belaying a leader on a sport route at Vantage. She had the rope coming out of the top of her device, but what's more, she always kept her hand ABOVE the device (not a GriGri), not off to the side. I was sorely tempted to say something. I actually started to say something, but when she didn't hear me I decided not to pursue it. The thing that bothered me about her technique is that she was belaying someone quite a bit heavier than she. Had he fallen, she would have been pulled upwards significantly. With her hand above the device and close to it, inertia would cause the hand to move AWAY from a locked off position to one that lets the rope run. The hand hits the device, the rope slips through the hand, hand feels pain, lets go. If she is attentive in her belay, and she appeared to be, she might have time to drop her hand to the side to lock off. I certainly wouldn't want someone belaying me this way if they couldn't see me. So am I blowing this all out of proportion, just to have something to worry about? Is one way better than the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Also don't forget your tenth essential belay glove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Phil Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Was she HOTT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdDog Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 I would be nervous if my belayer did what you describe (gal in Vantage). How do you rig your tube device so tail end comes out the bottom. Can't quite picture this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad_A Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 I would be nervous if my belayer did what you describe (gal in Vantage). How do you rig your tube device so tail end comes out the bottom. Can't quite picture this. I think that this is what you're looking for. This may not be a great, upclose picture of it, but you'll get the idea if you look at the belay biner, and ATC, and how the rope is running through them. The brake hand side of the rope(s) are coming out of the ATC toward the ground, on the bottom side of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crillz Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 The way you describe is the best, but I think it's safe either way if the belayer is competent. I wasn't in your shoes, but if they looked like they could have used some help, why not give it to them if you are willing - obviously you were willing if your're posting this. If I was doing/or my belayer was doing something unsafe/stupid I'd hope a more experienced onlooker would speak up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekend_Climberz Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 I know that I've brain farted before and ended up with the rope coming up and out of the device. CBS has actually chatised me before about it. I'm pretty sure that he's comfortable with my belays though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crillz Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Also, the orientation of the rope is not as important in other devices that have teeth - like reverso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 6, 2007 Author Share Posted March 6, 2007 Was she HOTT? Well, Mr. Phil, she did have a pretty face, but as it was cold she was bundled up pretty good so it's hard to say for sure if she was hott. Ken, I never wear belay gloves. I don't insist that my students wear them either. If a beginner feels like he or she would like to wear one, I don't discourage it. My take on belaying is that there are two aspects to it, good technique and attentiveness. Good technique to me means that even if you can't see the leader, or hear him, you will catch him 100% of the time, even if your attention is wandering (because the damn lead is taking too long)! Attentiveness can make up for bad technique and vice versa. Best to have both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 The way you describe is the best, but I think it's safe either way if the belayer is competent. I wasn't in your shoes, but if they looked like they could have used some help, why not give it to them if you are willing - obviously you were willing if your're posting this. If I was doing/or my belayer was doing something unsafe/stupid I'd hope a more experienced onlooker would speak up. Nice Call. Ditto here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Since the belay loop is flexible, I've always been convinced that if I put my hand by my hip while catching a fall, the device is going to sort itself out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdDog Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 That works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crillz Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 That too. PS - Counterfeit - I sent you a PM about that extra rack key. Do you want it mailed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotly Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Everyone I climb with has the rope coming out the bottom. It's the way I was taught as well and it seems unatural to have it the other way...to me. As for not keeping the rope in brake position, I've seen lots of people doing this, even some pretty experienced people. One friend tells me he does it because it gives a bit more of a dynamic belay. Not sure of the validity of that but on sport or TR, I'd prefer a quicker catch as I trust the bolts to hold. Maybe that's valid for ice or sketchy trad placements? Either way, for me it's rope out the bottom and hand in brake position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 CBS, why didn't you just ask to see her belay card? RRROOOOOOROOOOORRRRRRROOOOO look out! BELAY COPS are about! Reno 911: Vantage is on the scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 I call BS. When the belay setup in the photo is loaded the belay device will shift upward (with rope coming out the top), assuming the first piece is above the belayer and not off to the side. Are you saying Dave Graham and Chris Sharma don't know how to belay? See Realization video at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-200477265572892748 Perhaps I am confused. Please post photo of 'the wrong orientation' so I can be enlightened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 The way you describe is the best, but I think it's safe either way if the belayer is competent. I wasn't in your shoes, but if they looked like they could have used some help, why not give it to them if you are willing - obviously you were willing if your're posting this. If I was doing/or my belayer was doing something unsafe/stupid I'd hope a more experienced onlooker would speak up. As a matter of course, I always look back at a belayer who is new to me to see what they are doing early in my climb. If I have a problem with something, I speak up right then and there (usually at a point it is still very safe to downclimb if something is amiss). Also, just personal note, I was taught to belay how CBS described except with my hand supine rather than prone. The reasoning behind this was that if the rope started to slide through my hand, there is more flesh to go through at the meaty part of the hand than there is at the V between the forefinger and the thumb. This makes sense to me so I always hold the rope this way. When I bring my second hand over, I will hold that hand on the rope in a prone position. Anyone else do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Ken, I never wear panties. I don't insist that my students wear them either. If a beginner feels like he or she would like to wear them, I don't discourage it. Catbird-dude: I didn't understand a word you said, boy. What kinda students you got? You one of them Mountaineers "professors"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 6, 2007 Author Share Posted March 6, 2007 Arch, by "supine" you mean palm up and by "prone" you mean palm down? I hold the rope palm down, just because it is more comfortable when my arm is at my side in the lock off position, where I keep my arm most of the time. The AMGA, I am told teaches it this way, although there are as many climbers that do it one way as the other. I don't think it matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Russ "The Fish" Walling demonstrates proper belay technique in this image blatantly ripped from his recent TR on Supertaco: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 6, 2007 Author Share Posted March 6, 2007 I call BS. When the belay setup in the photo is loaded the belay device will shift upward (with rope coming out the top), assuming the first piece is above the belayer and not off to the side. Are you saying Dave Graham and Chris Sharma don't know how to belay? See Realization video at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-200477265572892748 Perhaps I am confused. Please post photo of 'the wrong orientation' so I can be enlightened. Rad, I am not saying one way is right and the other is wrong. I stated my reasons for doing it the way I do, and I was curious as to whether anyone thought my reasons were valid or not. I do believe in being consistent. The only exception to my method is when I am belaying a follower from my harness while sitting. Then I take the tail off the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Russ "The Fish" Walling demonstrates proper belay technique in this image blatantly ripped from his recent TR on Supertaco: Sweet chalk bag. Is that for storing extra beers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmace Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Ya I dont get it, isnt the tube the same as an ATC..? can you show a diagram..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTM Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 This may be a problem stemming from the amount of people learning to climb in gyms (pure speculation). The reason I think this, is because a lot of gym's rental harnesses just have the 1 hard point and they are taught in the classes to orient the braking side of the rope towards their brake hand (left/right). Then, when they buy their own harness or borrow a friend's with a belay loop, they try to orient the brake side to the left or right, as opposed to up/down, sometimes resulting in the brake side comming out the top. I've seen this happen quite a bit, but if their brake hand goes down to the side quickly, I have no gripes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 Ya I dont get it, isnt the tube the same as an ATC..? can you show a diagram..? ATC, B-52, Pyramid, Reverso are all considered tube type devices in contrast to something like a figure 8. If you happen to belay with an alpine bod harness or if you do like many old timers do and put your parabiner through both tie-in points on your harness, then your orientation is either "left" or "right", not up or down, as with a belay loop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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