knappster99 Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Does anyone have any recommendations for a course? I was looking at the Tacoma Mountaineers course because I don't have to drive to Seattle, but I'm open to other options. There are a few at North Seattle Community College which are considerably cheaper (for class cost, not equipment). Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couloir Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 I know REI has them. They're cheap, so I don't know how extensive they are, but it may be another option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 REI's cources tend to be oriented towards use of GPS receivers. If you don't already have training in good old fashioned map and compass, you would be short changing yourself if you skipped over this essential skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knappster99 Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 I've been to a couple of REI's "101" classes and they're pretty thin. Their snow camping one was a joke so I'm kind of weary to drop some money for any courses from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knappster99 Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 Map and compass navigation (orienteering, I guess) is what i'm looking for. I have a GPS and use it a lot but I really don't want to be tied down by it or be too dependent on it. There really is no substitute for a compass and map... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Hook up with me at Vantage some weekend and I can give you the quick and dirty, then you can practice if from there. Might cost you a diet coke. PM me if interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamin Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Go do an off-trail hike. Take it slow and take compass bearings frequently. If you become really good with a map and compass, you may be more accurate than an altimeter. You can navigate off of the angles of hills and any visible landmark, but if there is zero visibility, you will just have to guess. Remember that the angle of declination is about 20 degrees here in Washington. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 REI does do a map & compass evening about once a month for free. This is a different offering than their GPS navigation. Even if its thin, it will give you a good introduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AR_Guy Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Check out some of the local Orienteering clubs. Â http://www.cascadeoc.org/ Â is a good place to start. Â Click on their training link - looks like there's a class April 7th at Pt. Defiance. Â Do some of the orienteering meets to get some practical experience with map and compass. Also do some of the permanent courses on your own. Â Another good choice for navigation practice is the evening, short (~3 to 4 hour long) Beast adventure race series. Â http://www.mergeo.com/beast/ Â They're also fun, with good folks. Â I'll ditto what Jamin has to say on off trail day hikes being good practice - pick a place you're already familiar with and that has good maps (Tiger Mtn was my self training ground) for starting out, before moving up in difficulty. Try to go from one trail cross country to another trail and hit a particular bend dead on, for example. Â I'd suggest a compass with a declination adjustment feature - then you don't have to worry about the difference between true and magnetic north. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knappster99 Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 That COC club looks pretty good and Point Defiance is about 5 mins from my house. Thanks for all the good tips on where to go, etc. I've picked up some green trails maps and are happy with those, are those sufficient? I have (free) access to the USGS maps of the area but they look like they may be a higher scale (100K? I don't know). Are there things I should look for in a map? 24K scale? Grid systems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Go do an off-trail hike. Take it slow and take compass bearings frequently. If you become really good with a map and compass, you may be more accurate than an altimeter. You can navigate off of the angles of hills and any visible landmark, but if there is zero visibility, you will just have to guess. Â No, in whiteout, that's where a compass plus a map plus an altimeter can usually tell you exactly where you are. Â I don't understand what point you're trying to make about accuracy of an altimeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamin Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 I have known altimeters to be off by 300 feet of vertical. I think that my partner did forget to calibrate it, but they are still not always accurate. They are still a useful tool, but do not follow them blindly. With decent visibility, a good map, and a compass you can sometimes pinpoint your elevation better than an altimeter can. Â Check out this site. http://www.thealtimeterstore.com/howtheywork.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 you don't need to tell me how an altimeter works, big boy. Â on a large glacier or snowfield, map and compass will put your position on a line, and an altimeter will pinpoint it. i don't think anyone prefers an altimeter to map/compass for serious navigation. an altimeter is great for telling how far you have gone on a hike from X elevation to Y elevation. Â slopes/aspects of hills are relatively inaccurate, due to local topography and measurement error. they can help a lot with the "big picture." Â i've never needed to take a bearing off a peak to figure out where i am -- any time i've been lost and wishing i could take a bearing, it's been dark or whiteout or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekend_Climberz Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Also, knowing the way the USGS laid the lines on the maps the are in circulation will change your mind, too. They gave 2 pictures taken from a plane of an area at slightly different angles to a drafter and they looked a the photos and estimated the contours visually. You should be able to get yourself within 100 feet on a map with an altimeter and good reflector compass. I haven't used a GPS, nor will I, especially since China can shoot our satelites out of orbit now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 ...I haven't used a GPS, nor will I, especially since China can shoot our satelites out of orbit now. Â I knew that my being way old skewl, and holding out on the purchase of a GPS unit, would save me some money one day. I feel justified. Hear me roar. Â knappster: The USGS topos at the 1:24000 scale (aka 7.5 minute quads) are the best for land navigation on foot. The Green Trails maps are at a larger scale that is not conducive to accurate navigation on foot. I think they are in the 1 inch = 1 mile scale factor or thereabouts. Not much good, IMHO, for accurate travel on foot, as the detail provided pales in comparison to the 7.5 minute quad maps. Â The benefits of the GT maps, if there are any, is that you can generally get one that covers all of the area in which you'll be traveling, as they make "specialty cuts" of popular areas. This means you don't have to take several different USGS maps to cover your travel zone. If you're wondering what I'm talking about here, take a look at how many USGS maps you need to cover any of the Cascade volcanoes and their approaches. However, that "benefit" has been replaced by the myriad software programs available on retail that allows one to crop and print any area of a USGS topo map one might want to have. Â I second AR Guy's suggestion that you get a compass with a declination adjustment/compensator. "Set it and forget it," as they say. That said, remember that declination varies as you move across the globe, so when traveling in different areas, check your map for the declination for that map's coverage, and reset your declination. You'll also want to remember that declination changes over time. In Washington State and environs, it's changing at the rate of about 6 minutes per year back to the west, or about 1 degree of declination westerly per decade. For example, if your map says it was issued in 1986, and it shows a 20-degree easterly declination, then you would set your declination adjustment on your compass to 18 degrees east of true north. Â As was mentioned above, I would tend to agree that the best source of training around here would be an orienteering club or course. I learned map and compass skills as a kid in the Boy Scouts (yah, I know, a ), but where I really perfected my skilz was by racing in orienteering meets when I was in college. No substitute for competitive learning situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 REI's cources tend to be oriented towards use of GPS receivers. If you don't already have training in good old fashioned map and compass, you would be short changing yourself if you skipped over this essential skill. Â Cat....that depends of which REI you go to. The downtown Portland store has a guy that specifically gives a course on compass. Not GPS. He does a great job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frikadeller Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Then again there are good books out there that can guide you...   http://www.amazon.com/Expert-Map-Compass-Björn-Kjellström/dp/0020292651  This book gave me the insight that I needed to travel "out of bounds".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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