Lighter pack weight.

[lizard_brain]

Here's another "aye" for leaving the stove at home unless it's multi-day and you need to melt snow for water. Montbell makes some good lightweight polarguard jackets and lightweight raingear (my current favorite). Serratus made a good 15-oz. pack, but I think they quit making them. Take iodine instead of the filter, use Gatorade bottles for water - 3 of those weigh one pound less than 3 Nalgene bottles.

[ericb]

Here are a couple of thoughts about alloy crampons and alloy head ice axes. I have both and they are perfect for snow travel.

But this weekend I was reminded of how limited these tools can be.

I was setting top ropes for ice climbing and grabbed the lightweight axe to run up a short couloir that was covered with six to twelve inches of powder snow over mixed rock and hard, thin ice. I was wearing G-14s, so was able to get secure foot placements, but the alloy ice axe (Grivel Nepal Light) was pretty useless. The pick would just bounce off the ice. The next trip up and down, with a steel headed axe, was way more secure.

So here are two conclusions:

1. It is difficult to anticipate route conditions for the entire route and alloy tools will cut the margin of safety. Carrying only the lightweight tools could leave the climber with a choice between accepting unnecessary risk and turning around, even if the tools work great for 99 percent of the route.

2. Alloy tools could force the climber to wait for rescue by his/her team in the event of a crevasse fall when steel crampons and axe would provide for a relatively easy (and much faster)self rescue. Has anyone tried climbing out with an alloy crampon and axe combo?

3. Practicing with the lightweight tools in conditions they were not designed for, and where you would not expect to use them, is important. If a climber carrys these tools, sooner or later they will encounter places where they will not be effective. It makes sense to learn their limitations without creating an epic.

 

Agreed on their limitations, and wouldn't recommend them for mixed routes, but there are many Cacade alpine routes that involve crossing a small ~ inactive glacier/snowfield to get to the rock/route for which the aluminum options work quite well.

 

Dragontail, Stuart, Forbidden, Black Peak, Vesper......to name a few. For many of these routes, the weight savings has a huge relative benefit for climbing relative to the possibility of a crevasse fall. Oftentimes, the the ice axe is just a necessary precaution to arrest a fall on the approach/decent and might never come off the pack. FWIW I have steel and aluminum versions of both.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2007 by ericb

[dbb]

One thing to note is that it is often unnessisary to bring an ice axe at all. Crampons will give you way better security on small snowfields or glaciers, removing the need to arrest a fall. You can also pick up a stick or rock as an "axe". Dragontail and Stuart (upper N ridge approach) are both great example spots.

 

 

[Blake]

If you know you will climb in rock shoes, wear lighter tennies on the hike in instead of larger boots. Heavy boots weight down your pack a lot when you bag them up and put on the rock shoes.

 

Check out the super-light harnesses from CAMP, they rock! (falling in them doesn't hurt too much actually)

[Dannible]

Also ask yourself if you even need rock shoes. I climbed in my boots in the gym all last winter and was pretty good at it by the time summer came along.

[sprocket]

Thanks for a lot of good input. For the sake of this discussion I am mainly interested in moderate rock climbs. Someone previously almost hit all the ones I am interested in, top of the list being W. and N. Ridge of Stuart.

 

Going stoveless is something I have contemplated if there is water available on the route. Approach shoes might be a good idea, but for me once it gets above 5.6-5.7 I would prefer my rock shoes. Trimming the rack appropriate to the route is a good suggestion too, I like to have a lot of cams when I am leading but they weigh a lot.

 

Gear I have and am contemplating getting lighter versions include:

Have: Down 20F bag 30oz

Want: WM or Marmot 16 oz bag

 

Have: 20oz bivy sack

Want: MB 6-7oz bivy sack

 

Have: 20oz belay jacket

Want: 9-10oz WM, MB or FF belay jacket

 

Have: 16+oz rock harness

Want: 8-9oz Mammut or Trango harness

 

Have: 24oz inflatable pad

Want: sub 10oz ¾-length foam pad

 

Have: 3lb 6oz Osprey pack

Want: lighter pack that carries well

 

Have: 16oz WP/B SD jacket

Want: sub 10oz jacket

 

Fairly lightweight stuff I have that I am not contemplating replacing at this point.

Snowpeak stove.

Titanium pot.

Givel Air Tech Racing Ice Axe

Stubai Univeral Aluminum Crampons

9.4mmx60M rope

Fair amount of wiregate biners and spectra sew runners.

 

Budget will determine how much of this I can swing this year. I will have to look at what gives the most weight reduction per dollar and what gear would have more uses besides the few carryovers I would do per year.

 

Thanks for the good info.

 

[AR_Guy]

Regarding the pad: Check out the Gossamar Gear pad (as mentioned previously). Used one on my PCT thru hike the summer of '06. 7 ounces. Lasts longer and more comfortable than the ridge rest.

 

Pack: Meant for hikers (eg - don't know how well you could climb in it), but check out the Granite Gear Vapor Trail. Probably the single most popular pack on the PCT. 2 pounds, reasonably priced, rugged construction (far more durable than the sil-nylon rucksacks) with a great suspension. Very comfortable with 30-35 lb loads or less (and does OK with 45 lb, although I don't recommend it).

 

You can make a 1/2 ounce stove for next to nothing. Google 'pepsi can stove' - the top few hits will point you to the 'standard' stove used by thru / long distance hikers. I used one for 5 1/2 months twice a day. Far more weight efficient for a few day (summer) trip than white gas. Another alternative is to use esbit tabs. Melt snow for water in a black garbage bag.

 

I'd suggest looking at the weight reduction of an item and divide the cost of the change by the weight savings to get a dollars per ounce number. Hit the high value items first.

[chucK]

It is not the weight I have an issue with.

On a hard alpine route or approach, you have to be able to pound water when it shows up. More than you would care to carry.

You can't do the 30 minute wait time. Or stop for a break a few minutes later. You also ideally pound water and then don't carry any.

 

When you pound a lot of water you are still carrying it.

[Ovr40]

I'm not trying to drop a flame bomb, but losing five pounds of body fat would probably help many/most climbers a lot more than replacing their pee bottle with the latest titanium piece.

[Mr_Phil]

Oh my God, I never thought of that!

[ericb]

I'm not trying to drop a flame bomb, but losing five pounds of body fat would probably help many/most climbers a lot more than replacing their pee bottle with the latest titanium piece.

 

Quite true, but the self denial of required for weight loss is not nearly as fun as dropping $ on shiny new gear.

[DanO]

I used a alloy head ice axe, not good on hard ice to say the least(bounces off like a rubber ball). Alloy crampons will dull very fast on rock. Keep to summer ice with this gear, & keep fingers crossed. I use steel gear.

 

I have a go light pack that I only used for bigger trips, save

a lot of weight, I took a long foam pad and cut it up to fit the

back of my pack I then took duck tape to make my own "Z" rest that fits my pack. I reduced the size of my home made Z rest to

two sections. This gives you a short sit pad or bivy pad fitted

to your pack to double as padding for your light weight backpack. The go-light pack is very light and can be floppy at times, but it works. I have the largest one made for mountaineering.

 

It is hard to keep weight down, seems like you always need to

be lighter.

 

Go on a diet and use the stepper machine 5 days a week, this

is my plan. Hardmen need less stuff

 

 

[Buckaroo]

"above 5.6-5.7 I would prefer my rock shoes."

 

Consider the Guide Tens. Approach/rock shoe with stealth rubber. Carry a piece of ensolite to jamb in the heel to tighten it up for the climbing. Good up to 5.10a

 

"Have: 3lb 6oz Osprey pack

Want: lighter pack that carries well"

 

I use a day pack, if necessary with the sleeping bag strapped on. The Go-Lite Breeze weighs 15oz with the waist belt I added, 1/2 bag will fit inside.

 

Before the Go-Lites I just used a generic day pack, good up to 50 lbs. Sort of like the sherpas tump line though it takes a couple hikes to get used to the load, maybe a little more on the shoulders.

 

Did full N ridge of Stuart and full NE Buttress of Slesse with the Breeze, 1/2 bag and the Guide Tens. About 20 to 25 lbs. (on climb, not counting rope/pro.) Also did 6 day trip to the Pickets with same system 27 lbs.(less food), that was with a 50m twin for raps, steel cramps and light axe.

 

Used a stick on Stuart, no cramps to cross the glacier. Descended Slesse via Crossover descent using sharp rocks no cramps to descend the snow, but had done a recon to know the snow was soft. Did a short section of hard heather with a Ti cleaning tool to self belay.

 

No stove on Stuart, got lucky with drips at the notch (PM), they were frozen in the AM. Took a stove on Slesse. Hot tea is a mental edge.

 

 

[Mark_Husbands]

I like my MEC Alpinelite 30.

[colt45]

"Did full N ridge of Stuart and full NE Buttress of Slesse with the Breeze, 1/2 bag and the Guide Tens. About 20 to 25 lbs. (on climb, not counting rope/pro.) No stove on Stuart

 

I have never weighed my pack, but given your description it seems like 20-25lbs on climb is a lot?

 

eg:

Pack: 1 lb

2 quarts water: 4 lb

Sleeping bag: 1 lb

Sleeping pad: 0.5 lb

Ice axe: 1 lb

Food: 1-2 lbs

Puffy jacket: <1 lb

Headlamp, sunscreen, and other misc stuff: 1 lb

 

This adds up to ~11 pounds.

[ericb]

"Did full N ridge of Stuart and full NE Buttress of Slesse with the Breeze, 1/2 bag and the Guide Tens. About 20 to 25 lbs. (on climb, not counting rope/pro.) No stove on Stuart

 

I have never weighed my pack, but given your description it seems like 20-25lbs on climb is a lot?

 

eg:

Pack: 1 lb

2 quarts water: 4 lb

Sleeping bag: 1 lb

Sleeping pad: 0.5 lb

Ice axe: 1 lb

Food: 1-2 lbs

Puffy jacket: <1 lb

Headlamp, sunscreen, and other misc stuff: 1 lb

 

This adds up to ~11 pounds.

 

You forgot the MLU - 0.75 lb

[Buckaroo]

""I have never weighed my pack, but given your description it seems like 20-25lbs on climb is a lot?""

 

you may be right, maybe that was with a rope/rack

[tvashtarkatena]

Go Lite has great lightweight packs, as does Granite Gear and others. Feathered Friends has fantastic quality down bags, fairly light, but a little $$ and not THE lightest...but you'll never be cold in one. Pro Mountain sports carries bags that are even lighter (great shop to visit all around). Snowpeak stoves (and their competitors) are great and weigh nothing, if you're planning on hot stuff. Camp has a 9 oz axe, if required, and their six point crampons rock at 7 oz absolutely rock. In good weather a 3 or 4 oz windshirt works wonderfully instead of a full shell. Similar pants are available. Lots of light approach footwear out there...see other threads on that. An Alpine Bod style harness saves weight...if you're not planning on 'hanging around' much, or are planning on removing your testicles at some point. Cyclist's arm warmers and leggings can stretch your clothing if the weather isn't quite perfect for not much weight.

[tvashtarkatena]

"Did full N ridge of Stuart and full NE Buttress of Slesse with the Breeze, 1/2 bag and the Guide Tens. About 20 to 25 lbs. (on climb, not counting rope/pro.) No stove on Stuart

 

I have never weighed my pack, but given your description it seems like 20-25lbs on climb is a lot?

 

eg:

Pack: 1 lb

2 quarts water: 4 lb

Sleeping bag: 1 lb

Sleeping pad: 0.5 lb

Ice axe: 1 lb

Food: 1-2 lbs

Puffy jacket: <1 lb

Headlamp, sunscreen, and other misc stuff: 1 lb

 

This adds up to ~11 pounds.

 

You forgot the MLU - 0.75 lb

 

You could shave weight on the axe and loose the puffy jacket from this list.

[tvashtarkatena]

"Did full N ridge of Stuart and full NE Buttress of Slesse with the Breeze, 1/2 bag and the Guide Tens. About 20 to 25 lbs. (on climb, not counting rope/pro.) No stove on Stuart

 

I have never weighed my pack, but given your description it seems like 20-25lbs on climb is a lot?

 

eg:

Pack: 1 lb

2 quarts water: 4 lb

Sleeping bag: 1 lb

Sleeping pad: 0.5 lb

Ice axe: 1 lb

Food: 1-2 lbs

Puffy jacket: <1 lb

Headlamp, sunscreen, and other misc stuff: 1 lb

 

This adds up to ~11 pounds.

 

You forgot the MLU - 0.75 lb

 

You could shave weight on the axe and loose the puffy jacket from this list.

[ClimbingPanther]

 

I'm a little curious why nobody has referenced "Stone Nudes" at some point on this thread...???

 

I'm all about using clothes you're going to wear anyway to augment the bag (or render it unnecessary, e.g. no bag on my Rainier DC climb). Choose your foods wisely - the fattier the better, within reason - and count calories to be sure you don't have too much. Fat has over twice the calories for the same weight of protein and carbs. Peanut butter is the most compact and lightweight product that's a real food you would want to eat, apart from something like pure oil (yuck!). Stay away from veggies or anything with significant water/undigestable content.

Mostly though, ultralight is about being rich.

[chris]

Some staples of my alpine system:

 

A Vireo "half" bag from Feathered Friends. At 70 inches long, it doesn't really qualify as a half bag. And even though it's rated to 45 degrees, I've slept in it down to the mid-twenties, albeit with some clothing assistance. And since it packs into the XS compression bag and weighs only a pound, it has become my sleeping insulation of choice.

 

Jetboil Stove. Until the MSR Reactor fits into one unit like the Jetboil, and is easily rigged to hang, this is my light and fast stove of choice. Minimal fuss.

 

Ortovox Gemini Bivy Envelope. This 4-foot by 5-foot, not-seam-sealed sleeve is a great emergency shelter that can fit two people - so you only need one.

 

Black Diamond Jackal pack. I use the Speed for day trips or "cold" overnights (no stoves, no sleeping systems), but the slightly larger Jackal lets me pack everything I need - and nothing more - on trips of one or two nights. In fact, during the hike in and out it's over-filled. But once on route it fits comfortably and climbs great, and can be used for rock and ice. I also found Grivel and Millet packs to be too short in the back, so the comment about BD packs being longer seems to be true.

[chris]

Harness. Dude, this is the last place I'll try to save weight on an alpine climb. Sitting in a skimpy harness on a hanging belay sucks. My personal favorite is the BD Blizzard: It provides enough support and the ice screw clips can be removed (or added to) depending on the route.

 

[Buckaroo]

 

 

""You could shave weight on the axe...""

 

Unless, you're going on a 1,500' boiler ice headwall.

 

""...and loose the puffy jacket from this list.""

 

Or Rainier in winter.

[Buckaroo]

""I'm all about using clothes you're going to wear anyway to augment the bag""

 

Agree, why carry that stuff if it's not used?

 

""Peanut butter is...""

 

Depending on your metabolism/genetics it can be very suck. Slows circulation. Best to try it on a training hike. Just like salt 20 percent of the population are adversely affected.

 

""apart from something like pure oil (yuck!)""

 

Olive oil is the best. In soup or on bread or just straight. Chouinard used to use it. When you're depleted and your body starts to use it's fat, it slows down. A dose of olive oil fakes it out so you can keep going high pace.

 

Lately I've turned to GU and Citomax, when the pace is high body doesn't want anything else until dinner. Digestion takes energy and these require very little.

 

""Mostly though, ultralight is about being rich.""

 

sometimes but not always. The GoLite packs are less than the average. And you can make a half bag from a used gear store bag and a sewing machine.