Bigtree Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 I was looking at Ade Miller's website http://www.ademiller.com/climbing/ referred to in his recent post: "Lots of pictures of the PNW" and saw a few pics of him and his mates simul-climbing. While not intended as a criticism of his choices in this regard, I just don't get the appeal or logic of it (for me). Sure you can move faster, but if either climber takes a fall the likelihood is that both end up at the bottom. I arrested a 15' leader fall rock climbing on the Chief at Squamish a few years back that broke my leg and ankle from the force (the rope looped around my leg/ankle as my buddy fell towards me and then torqued both after he bounced off my head and went zipping past for another 15'). If I hadn't have been clipped into the belay station (eg. simul-climbing) the incident would have been far uglier. Ya, snow/ice is a little different than rock climbing but a fall is a fall. Seems like simul-climbing increases risks to both climbers rather than decreasing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flush_Amazing Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 You haven't done much alpine climbing have you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 I don't like it as well in the sense that it increases your risk, but you are not suppose to fall- but it beats sleeping overnight on the rocks eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Belaying would result in going slower, which would require either carrying more supplies (making technical stuff even harder, or going even slower) or risking weather / increased objective hazard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Your accident sounds like it happened on very steep terrain. Typically, simul-climbing is done in easy terrain where one might even consider going unroped. But at the very least, both climbers are comfortable with the difficulty level. I always try to have three bomber pieces in at least. The idea is to move quickly between difficult sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couloir Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Simul-climbing with a running belay is the best compromise between a full belay and being unroped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 There is a lot of terrain where an unroped fall would be fatal, yet the climbing is easy. Pitching this terrain out takes forever. Simulclimbing is a good solution. I don't think you really see a lot of simulcragging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wfinley Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Ya, snow/ice is a little different than rock climbing but a fall is a fall True - but the first rule of simul-climbing is don't fall. Thus if you follow the rules then you don't have to worry about falliing. In all seriousness this is one of those risk equations... i.e. - is it more risk to simul climb terrain where you're pretty sure you won't fall as opposed to either (a) soloing that terrain or (b) belaying everything and risking weather, nightfall, the wrath of your wife etc. etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Phil Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Anyone who pitched out the Complete North Ridge of Stuart would probably still be there. Simul-climbing is used to cover *easy* ground quickly, where you aren't comfortable free-soloing. Oh, and don't fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 What about simul-trolling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Think very exposed 4th or low 5th class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flush_Amazing Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Sorry for my flippant initial response. It's a good question. Simulclimbing is for climbing the easy, but still 5th class, pitches inbetween the harder pitches on a longer climb. This allows you to do the climb in the shortest amount of time possible thereby making the whole experience safer (less exposure to objective hazard and weather) and more fun (less gear to carry, avoidance of uncomfortable on-route bivies). It is not as safe as belayed climbing and should therefore only be done on terrain that is well below each climber's limit. Another random note: the stronger climber should go second and neither climber is allowed to fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Simul-climbing increases your risk compared to pitched climbing - as any fall might be a lot worse - but decreases your risk compared to soloing. It's also only slightly slower than soloing - you have to stop to place gear and eventually the leader runs out and you have to regroup and start again. It's a tradeoff - increased chance of injury from a fall on easy ground vs risk from more time spent on the route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt45 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 I think of simul-climbing like soloing--except that if the climbing gets slightly challenging, the leader or second can anchor in and give a fixed belay at any time (this is especially handy when long stretches of scrambling/low 5th are interspersed with short steps of more difficult climbing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flush_Amazing Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Alright. I think we got that question answered. Anybody have any pictures of dolphin/buick hybrids they'd like to share? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 I think of simul-climbing like soloing--except that if the climbing gets slightly challenging, the leader or second can anchor in and give a fixed belay at any time (this is especially handy when long stretches of scrambling/low 5th are interspersed with short steps of more difficult climbing). It's not like soloing, there should be gear between the two climbers. Otherwise you just increased your risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flush_Amazing Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Yeah, but if I'm 40ft out from my last piece I'm pretty much considering myself as "soloing". I think that's what Colt45 was saying and I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TobinJourdan Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 If you injured yourself belaying, then simulclimbing probably isn't for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATT_B Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 To add to the speed thing. Lets say your roped up and have a couple of pitches of easy ground to cover where you don't need a rop. Above that are some harder pitches that you want to belay. It is a lot faster to stay roped up and simul-climb than to take the rope off and coil it up. It is also a good skill to have if you ever come accross a pitch where that rope is not quite long enough. Assuming the terain is easy enough and you are well in tune with your partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbconlin Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 If you injured yourself belaying, then simulclimbing probably isn't for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigtree Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 It's not like soloing, there should be gear between the two climbers. Otherwise you just increased your risk. Got it Ade. I obviously missed the important nuance when perusing your photos. Good discussion/comments nonetheless. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_Husbands Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 its the only way you'll ever climb a 400 ft pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 I was looking at Ade Miller's website http://www.ademiller.com/climbing/ referred to in his recent post: "Lots of pictures of the PNW" and saw a few pics of him and his mates simul-climbing. While not intended as a criticism of his choices in this regard, I just don't get the appeal or logic of it (for me). Sure you can move faster, but if either climber takes a fall the likelihood is that both end up at the bottom. I arrested a 15' leader fall rock climbing on the Chief at Squamish a few years back that broke my leg and ankle from the force (the rope looped around my leg/ankle as my buddy fell towards me and then torqued both after he bounced off my head and went zipping past for another 15'). If I hadn't have been clipped into the belay station (eg. simul-climbing) the incident would have been far uglier. Ya, snow/ice is a little different than rock climbing but a fall is a fall. Seems like simul-climbing increases risks to both climbers rather than decreasing them. Simul climbing allowed me and my partner to climb Epinephrine in 10 pitches instead of 18. We simuled the last 900 feet of the route. 5.6 and under. We made sure there was at least 2 to 3 pieces in inbetween us and all times and just focused on climbing. It works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joblo7 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 my bud and i simulclimbed for 2 days on a 6000ft couloir mostly ice.it was mostly 60 -80deg .we kept 3 -4 pieces in at all times. carried 10 srews+4 pins+slings saved hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tthirloway Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Does anyone have any stories of falling while simul-climbing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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