Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • olyclimber

      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
Sign in to follow this  
sobo

"Why don't we charge 'em for gettin' rescued?"

Recommended Posts

This question always comes up by some ignorant, self-professed mountaineering "expert" after a high-profile, dramatized, media circus event like the recent Hood operation. It happened after all the falderal on Liberty Ridge a couple of years back, and on Hood before that. Maybe it's ignorance of reality, maybe it's just the "armchair mountaineers" out there wanting to hear their own voice, I don't know, and frankly I don't even care.

 

What I do care about is that the real information gets out there. I've been chasing around this board over the past few days posting a link in almost every thread where the subject question gets asked. The link re-directs to the AAC's detailed report about the real cost of rescues and who are the rescuee groups most often requiring search and rescue, and I got news for you armchair climbers out there: It ain't us!

 

So, for the record and to any BarcaLounger mountaineer who asks this question, or to those of us of whom this question gets asked and you want to know what to tell these "experts", I give you the link to the report.

 

Climbing Rescues in America: Reality Does Not Support "High-Risk, High-Cost" Perception

 

Please, people... let's end this sort of stupid opining now. You know who you are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the military cost for rescue...

 

I've been told by several military folks that they have funds set aside for this type of "training activity." It provides the military valuable training, they're using funds already set aside, and they are more often than not bored as shit and can't wait till something like this happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PS - With all the traffic CC is getting I think this should be a sticky.

 

wfinley: I think you're quite right. The mods can delete all my ranting and just leave the link, if they feel so inclined.

I will not be offended, as my hide was tanned long ago.

 

michael: What you've been told is also correct. It's money we as taxpayers have already spent by the time we file our returns, and the military would spend it on training for rescues anyway if it weren't for real rescue operations. And they really do like doing the "real thing" as opposed to training for it. That's been my experience for as long as I've been in SAR/MR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeepers, peeps! Who rated this thread 5 stars?? :confused::laf:

 

wfinley: That Oregon SAR annual report looks incredibly well done. I just scanned through the whole 114 pages.

Requires printing and further study over the holidays...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the link Sobo.

 

What everyone has failed and will continue to fail in this "cost" is what are the incremental costs for a rescue.

 

For example, if a sheriff was not coordinating the rescue, he would still get paid becuase he is salaried. His cost then does not get factored into the rescue becuase it is not an incremental cost. Military personell will still be training, so their cost does not factor. The only incremental cost I can think about is hiring personal contractors for each mission, and the incremental fuel for the missions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As for the military cost for rescue...

 

I've been told by several military folks that they have funds set aside for this type of "training activity." It provides the military valuable training, they're using funds already set aside, and they are more often than not bored as shit and can't wait till something like this happens.

 

That's what the military dudes told me on the helicopter when they rescued me in the Enchantments back in 2003.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As for the military cost for rescue...

 

I've been told by several military folks that they have funds set aside for this type of "training activity." It provides the military valuable training, they're using funds already set aside, and they are more often than not bored as shit and can't wait till something like this happens.

 

That's what the military dudes told me on the helicopter when they rescued me in the Enchantments back in 2003.

 

WOW i haven't seen you arround in a long time!!

 

BIG HUGS!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent writing and portrayal of the facts in that statement and the linked headline article, iain. :tup: :tup:

 

And weighty thanks for you and your crew getting it on up there these past two weeks. :tup: :tup: Now, take a break!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll drop this up on the frontpage of the site to give it some exposure to this past few weeks events.

 

Thanks all for the usefull links.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

O'Riely and company contacted me about that show. But the call screener quickly realized that they weren't going to get much sympathy for charging and more regs from me... Which is too bad, b/c it would have been nice to part of his "No Spin-Zone"... :battlecage:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
O'Riely and company contacted me about that show. But the call screener quickly realized that they weren't going to get much sympathy for charging and more regs from me... Which is too bad, b/c it would have been nice to part of his "No Spin-Zone"... :battlecage:

 

if i were you i would try and contact another show and get this info out there. this is important for several reasons.

 

damn media

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike, you should have soft peddled him on your position so you could get some airtime, then set the record straight. That would be fair and balanced. Get them on the ol' bait and switch for once.

 

Although I'm sure the NPS probably wouldn't like the exposure or even the sentiment.

 

"Head climbing ranger calls for end to regulations, promotes anarchy"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
O'Riely and company contacted me about that show. But the call screener quickly realized that they weren't going to get much sympathy for charging and more regs from me... Which is too bad, b/c it would have been nice to part of his "No Spin-Zone"... :battlecage:

 

if i were you i would try and contact another show and get this info out there. this is important for several reasons.

 

damn media

 

I appreciate the support/encouragement, but I don't have TV and have missed most of the Hood coverage. So, is the media STILL spinning this story? As for this event, I didn't want to continually watch this story, esp after the first day of clearing and nothing was found... Those details weren't very encouraging.

 

Also, I shared email w/ these climbers before they climbed Rainier last spring. I didn't put that together till I started reading the Rainier related threads, which are very foreboding. After all the rescue work I've seen/done, I just didn't have it in me to read the banter on this site, and I'm sure there was some really good stuff. Personally, I understand all too well what the climbers, rescuers, and search managers are going (and went) through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike, you should have soft peddled him on your position so you could get some airtime, then set the record straight. That would be fair and balanced. Get them on the ol' bait and switch for once.

 

Although I'm sure the NPS probably wouldn't like the exposure or even the sentiment.

 

"Head climbing ranger calls for end to regulations, promotes anarchy"

 

Well, I wasn't quite suggesting that... But... ;)

 

The screener kept asking about new regs... SO I asked her "What regs or new laws would she create/suggest?" She mentioned requirements around "experience." And then I said, but didn't these guys have experience? Ok, what about minimum "gear/equipment," but didn't these guys have that too? Ok, what about "weather?" So you want to pass a reg that says the weatherman must approve climbing trips? And who will do this?? She gave up when she realized the best way to deal w/ this issue to provide knowledgable people who can register and educate climbers pre-trip, so the climbers can make good choices. I could have soft peddled it, but I wasn't in the mood to BS... Oh well, I'm pretty sure there will be more opportunities in the future. The public loves this topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BTW, I suspect that this latest round of "charge the climbers" will pass. It's just not sound public policy when you look at the issue in depth...

 

I agree that this will likely fade. With legislators around the country on vacation they won't have this high on their radar when they get back. The public policy soundness of something doesn't always protect you when there are political points to be scored!

 

I've had the 20-something victim on the cliff screaming at me over the blasting Bell 412 rotorwash, "No helicopter. I can't pay for a helicopter rescue!"

 

Charging is a bad idea all around....

 

BTW - Props to you Gator for all your work in trying to keep some sane perspective in this area

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How are you going to charge climbers a fee when you can't even get them to buy a SnoPark permit?

 

I noticed the three lost climbers didn't have a SnoPark permit on their dashboard. It was obvious when the windshield note was shown on the evening news.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just what we need more regs... that screener was speaking rhetoric bull.

mike just tell her the truth. climbing is dangerous.

shit happens...even to the best of them.

 

Based on discussions I have been involved in with very much NON climber-type-people:

I am sure a lot of people in america think climbers are insane just for trying...especially in winter conditions. No offence to anyone.

As one well respected american author once said "Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games." Ernest Hemingway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...BTW - Props to you Gator for all your work in trying to keep some sane perspective in this area

 

I'll second that sentiment! Mike asked all the right rhetorical questions of the media "shark", and kept the blood out of the water. Of course, The Evil Dark Lord is going to get a bashing tonight when O'Reilly opens his show with "Head Climbing Ranger at Mt. Rainier NP shrugs off pointed questions about much-needed climbing regulations." :rolleyes:

 

Lastly, Hood ain't "Mike's mountain." Gator's got plenty else to be worrying about right now, I'm sure, then to be explaining to La-Z-Boy mountaineers how rescues/costs are actually conducted/apportioned. The job of education falls to all of us!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree that this will likely fade. With legislators around the country on vacation they won't have this high on their radar when they get back. The public policy soundness of something doesn't always protect you when there are political points to be scored!

 

I briefed a key Senate staffer on the Park commitee about this topic after my study on charging climbers for rescue on Denali (2001). Though a Senator pursued the topic publically, his staff privately agreed that it was done more for media purposes. When it comes down to it, it's not worth the time to chase such dollar amounts given the complications of doing so. He described rescues costs for climbers as "decimal dust" when considering the federal budget.

 

BTW - Props to you Gator for all your work in trying to keep some sane perspective in this area

 

Jedi mind tricks...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike, you should have soft peddled him on your position so you could get some airtime, then set the record straight. That would be fair and balanced. Get them on the ol' bait and switch for once.

 

Although I'm sure the NPS probably wouldn't like the exposure or even the sentiment.

 

"Head climbing ranger calls for end to regulations, promotes anarchy"

 

Well, I wasn't quite suggesting that... But... ;)

 

The screener kept asking about new regs... SO I asked her "What regs or new laws would she create/suggest?" She mentioned requirements around "experience." And then I said, but didn't these guys have experience? Ok, what about minimum "gear/equipment," but didn't these guys have that too? Ok, what about "weather?" So you want to pass a reg that says the weatherman must approve climbing trips? And who will do this?? She gave up when she realized the best way to deal w/ this issue to provide knowledgable people who can register and educate climbers pre-trip, so the climbers can make good choices. I could have soft peddled it, but I wasn't in the mood to BS... Oh well, I'm pretty sure there will be more opportunities in the future. The public loves this topic.

 

I don't blame you for not wanting to BS. it is just a crying shame to see all the "bad press" this tragedy is getting. I am very glad we as a community are fortunate enough to have you on our side :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×