joblo7 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 you tell him mike!( shimigami) big hand to all the rescuers! " i try and try with every breath to give lethargy a quick death. ckg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Male Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 (edited) I've been following this, and I seem to get the idea, they were not prepared. Prepared to climb, not prepared to be there for any length of time. I've only heard mention of a Gortex Bivy bag. Was this the ECWS system, and were they carrying the other parts. Did they have stoves, fuel, MREs, tent or even reflective mirrors. A gortex bivy is great without a tent in a snow cave. I always carry 2 to 4 bottles of fuel, even on 2 day outing, just in case. I have a MSR stove, and also a small German stove, about the size of a can of shoe polish. I also carry a can of shoe polish, as easy to light. And several small plastic boxes sealed with firestarter, waterproof matches, Trioxane, and a keyring, with a tiny led light, fingernail cutters and a P-38 can opener. One box on my belt, one on my vest, and 1 in my pack. A MRE in my belt pouch, 1 or 2 in my day pack, and 1 or 2 in my full pack. They all have Matches, Food, Toilet paper(Emergency kindleing) and other essentials. If I'm hiking a trail, even if I'm going 1 mile, I carry all this stuff. I also keep this pack in the back of my Van. I hope these guys are OK, but you also need to be preparred for the worst. Mt. Hood isn't a walk thru a wooded trail in the summer. Yeah, I got 60 lbs of extra crap in my pack, but I'd rather have the extra work lugging it around, then not have it when I needed it. And when you start leaving rope, and especially a Bivy bag behind, it's looking bad. Again, my prayers to the climbers and family. And next time you're going out, don't throw that second canister of fuel back into your vehicle to lighten your load by 2 lbs. STFU poser! Thanks for listing your backpacking gear, i'm sure you'd be rescued well before the summit, considering your 10 essentials encumbered bag of crap. Why don't you STFU Michael Layton, you obnoxious drooling, mouth-breathing pig!!! Edited December 18, 2006 by Zeta Male Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickinPDX Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 If there is any need for a trained Critical Incident Counselor to provide support to the rescue teams or family please drop me a line off list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillA Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 The Baby Jesus is all the extra gear I need, he's my personal locater beacon of love. I was climbing in Hyalite today and unfortunately I forgot my belt pouch with my MREs. I was about to call in a rescue but just called in a favor to the baby Jay-sus and it was all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Male Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Wow - 30 new pages since I last signed on! I'm way to tired to read them all tonight so I'll just pass on a few notes from the south side from this weekend. Saturday was the first day we could finally do a thorough search of the entire mountain. Our hope was that someone would pop out of a snow cave and we'd spot them and be able to rescue them. We positioned ourselves and our equipment to be in position for a rescue if someone found these guys. Obviously, this did not happen. Our secondary goal for Saturday was to check out the upper mountain and see if it would be possible to push a team up to the summit on Sunday. We checked avi conditions (scary, but doable) and tried to establish a camp at Triangle Moraine (but couldn't due to high winds and extremely cold temps). A team was able to make it up to the hogsback but had to dig in and hide in a snow cave (-5 degrees F and 30 mph winds). The cold yesterday was brutal and several rescuers got frostnipped on fingers, toes, and faces. Today we shifted modes a bit. We learned that some clues had been spotted just below the summit on the north side so we focused all our efforts on getting teams onto the summit. A team of 2 made it up from the South Side and met several more as they were lowered by helicopter. They only had 2 hours of daylight to search the entire summit but were able to find a lot of clues including the obvious (and unfortunate) big clue. They couldn't positively identify the person we found because they couldn't find any wallet or anything in the 15 minutes or so they had before it got dark. There simply wasn't time to to a recovery today so they marked the location and I'm sure they'll return tomorrow (weather permitting, of course) to complete the recovery and follow up on the rest of the clues. Now I'm going to take a long, hot shower and then sleep for about a week. -Scott PS: Thanks very much everyone for respecting the closure of the upper mountain and staying out of our way. It really helped us out a lot and we really appreciate it. Tremendous work, Scott - thanks for being there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joblo7 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 those guys would have lasted 15 days in these conditions with what they had, if not for their accident. i'm not sure you and shimi would ,with any gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 I've been following this, and I seem to get the idea, they were not prepared. Prepared to climb, not prepared to be there for any length of time. I've only heard mention of a Gortex Bivy bag. Was this the ECWS system, and were they carrying the other parts. Did they have stoves, fuel, MREs, tent or even reflective mirrors. A gortex bivy is great without a tent in a snow cave. I always carry 2 to 4 bottles of fuel, even on 2 day outing, just in case. I have a MSR stove, and also a small German stove, about the size of a can of shoe polish. I also carry a can of shoe polish, as easy to light. And several small plastic boxes sealed with firestarter, waterproof matches, Trioxane, and a keyring, with a tiny led light, fingernail cutters and a P-38 can opener. One box on my belt, one on my vest, and 1 in my pack. A MRE in my belt pouch, 1 or 2 in my day pack, and 1 or 2 in my full pack. They all have Matches, Food, Toilet paper(Emergency kindleing) and other essentials. Hi ShiniGami, You might consider taking a course from the Mountaineers. They can help you reduce your packweight but still keep you safe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShiniGami Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 (edited) Lambone, Trioxane is the fuel, so I think you've never seen or used this, and will burn unless completely drenched/soaked under water. You can buy packs still useable from early 1970's Vietnam. I also carry underwater firestarters. I have them in every piece of gear I carry for use in an emergency. I once was in a huge downpour, and my Scout Troop said, give up on the fire, go to bed. I said I was going to make a fire. I took all the availble wood into the shelter. I broke into by size and seperated. And got a rageing fire going. Don't tell me these are stupid. You can make up 3 of these boxes for 1 person, Day/Assault Pack/Main Pack and Personal, for less than 1 lb. Waterproof Matches, Trioxane, Firestarter, Survival Ring (Mini LED Light, FIngernail Clipper and P-38 Can Opener). If you go out and don't want to carry the basics, you get what you deserve. But still , my prayers to the families. Edited December 18, 2006 by ShiniGami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smprfi Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 It was 16 days back in '76. The last 13 were in one snowcave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrd Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 those guys would have lasted 15 days in these conditions with what they had, if not for their accident. i'm not sure you and shimi would ,with any gear. Let's not conclude before the autopsy result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Shini, I didn't say your idea was stupid. and yes, I did not know about Trioxane, but thanks. What I am saying to you is why not wait until their equipment list is released before critiszing it. please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Light and Fast alpine climbing is an approach to traditional mountaineering that seeks to leave behind everything but the minimum gear required to reach the objective under the assumed conditions. One who is experienced might strip away everything that was not used on previous climbs, leaving no room for error. link This is by no means an advertisement for who ever's website this is. I thought it was a good basic definition. I think when most people think about mountaineering they think about everest, where loads are ferried up to a certain point. From the information we have so far this is not the style these men were taking, due to the type of climb it was. The climb required fast and light. I dunno what a good comparison would be? Maybe, the difference between driving out of town for the holidays with pretty much the bare minimum vs taking 2 wk vacation or road trip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Lambone, Shini, and Layton: we have been trying for the last few days to keep this thread relatively free of the tit-fot-tat and similar distractions. One climber was found dead today. We are all saddened by this turn of events. Please, if you feel the need to debate somebody about MRE's or something, go to another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Light and Fast alpine climbing is an approach to traditional mountaineering that seeks to leave behind everything but the minimum gear required to reach the objective under the assumed conditions. One who is experienced might strip away everything that was not used on previous climbs, leaving no room for error. link This is by no means an advertisement for who ever's website this is. I thought it was a good basic definition. I think when most people think about mountaineering they think about everest, where loads are ferried up to a certain point. From the information we have so far this is not the style these men were taking, due to the type of climb it was. The climb required fast and light. I dunno what a good comparison would be? Maybe, the difference between driving out of town for the holidays with pretty much the bare minimum vs taking 2 wk vacation or road trip? I think that is a good analogy carolyn. I am not an expert but what you said made sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Male Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Lambone, Shini, and Layton: we have been trying for the last few days to keep this thread relatively free of the tit-fot-tat and similar distractions. One climber was found dead today. We are all saddened by this turn of events. Please, of you feel the need to debate somebody about MRE's or something, go to another thread. Why didn't you delete my smack-down of Layton? You deleted his of Shimi, I think it was. I guess I got a little uppity with Layton. He's probably not all bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 good question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrgirl Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 I have been haunted by these climbers for days. Mountaineering is in my blood. I've grown up in the columbia gorge, watched my dad leave for days on SAR efforts. Listened to his stories and knew some who the stories were about . . . . family friends like Gary Schneider (who was in the snowcave for 13 days). At 12yrs old, climbing our first peak (non-tech) was a "coming of age" event in our family. Everytime I hear of lost climbers my heart sinks and they consume my thoughts. I generally don't watch the news, but when climbers are missing I can't stay away. I can't help but think how easily that could be someone dear to me, or me for that matter. There's always speculation and judgement were they prepared, what did they do right/wrong, etc.. But now, especially now, . . . let's remember the people. The climbers, who died doing what they loved; and their families, god bless them, who when all the media and forum hungry folks have left, are still without their loved one. My heart feels heavy tonight for the family who lost someone dear. . . . and yet still hopeful for the two remaining. Keep hope alive. . . no matter how dim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joblo7 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 .life is suicidal. we all die in the end.... the intensity, commitement,focus,and hardships that high level endeavours demand are insignificant entree fees into a world of true freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Nope, Mike is definitely not all bad. He's a heck of a good climber and we like him around here. Lambone is OK, too. What I saw was a thread that we have been trying to maintain as an information-sharing discussion (with some disctractions here and there) rapidly accelerating toward off-topic banter and quip. I cut out a handful of posts and suggested that elsewhere on the board we maintain opportunities for any and just about all of the comments somebody would want to post. But here we've been talking about the incident, the search and rescue effot, reporting news, and speculating about events. If you want to argue about the ten essentials or call each other idiots there are indeed other discussions on this very website for that purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Male Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Nope, Mike is definitely not all bad. He's a heck of a good climber and we like him around here. Lambone is OK, too. What I saw was a thread that we have been trying to maintain as an information-sharing discussion (with some disctractions here and there) rapidly accelerating toward off-topic banter and quip. I cut out a handful of posts and suggested that elsewhere on the board we maintain opportunities for any and just about all of the comments somebody would want to post. But here we've been talking about the incident, the search and rescue effot, reporting news, and speculating about events. If you want to argue about the ten essentials or call each other idiots there are indeed other discussions on this very website for that purpose. A special place where I can call idiocy - really?!?!?!?!?!?!? I'm there! Bye for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyn Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 It was 16 days back in '76. The last 13 were in one snowcave. Yep, the last snow cave was the 6th or 7th they dug. I only quoted a part of the article (but gave the link). A great story - 3 teenagers, leave their map in the car, get lost, dig 6 or 7 snow caves, two fall into crevasses & rescue themselves, on Hood 16 days and were never afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Matt, sorry - i couldn't help it. It's just that this thread seems to have become similar to a traffic jam caused by people slowing down to look at an accident...cept they're shouting out suggestions out the window to the wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 hrgrl: But now, especially now, . . . let's remember the people. The climbers, who died doing what they loved; and their families, god bless them, who when all the media and forum hungry folks have left, are still without their loved one. yes, look here: In Loving Memory, R.I.P. 2006 Posted by climber/photographer Jerry Drodrill Mike Baker Eric Brand Tom Burke Sara Johanna Carlsson Raleigh Collins Doug Coombs David Dedo Andres Delgado Franco Dellatorre Howie Doyle Hans Gmoser Heinrich Harrer James Juarez Steve Karafa James Kim Jean-Christophe Lafaille Jason Lane *** my partner Norman B. "Ike" Livermore Nadim Melconian Scott McAndrews Alvin McLane Karen McNeil Dennis Miller Eric Newby Sue Nott Roberta Nunes Heather Paul Alfonso de la Parra Nathan Thomas Parrish John Gilbert Patterson Carlos Pinto Jimmy Ray Patty Rambert Charles Walter Rosenthal Dan Scott Jeff Shoen Todd Skinner Vern Steifel Charles C. Thompson Dick Webster This list is too long, and sadly too short. There are others. Add them here in solemn rememberence of 2006. May it end quickly and in peace. Still holding on for these brothers in spirit: Charlie Fowler Christine Boskoff Kelly James Brian Hall Jerry "Nikko" Cooke *updating as we go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrd Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 A special place where I can call idiocy - really?!?!?!?!?!?!? I'm there! Bye for now. Without respect to anyone but this is the first time I smiled over the last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cartomat Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 I once was in a huge downpour, and my Scout Troop said, give up on the fire, go to bed. I said I was going to make a fire. I took all the availble wood into the shelter. I broke into by size and seperated. And got a raoring fire going. Shini - Climbing the NF is no "Scout Troop" trip. You obviously have no cred speaking about gear prep for a difficult winter alpine climb by experienced alpinists. These climbers were not climbing to mountain just to get to the top by the easiest route to enjoy the sunrise. They have spent years climbing mountains across the world and developing technical skills that enable them to move vertically in challenging conditions. You seem to be more of a horizontal mover that lack the technical climbing skills for difficult routes - so STFU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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