Seinfeld's Kramer: Racist Piece of Shit or...

[Stonehead]

when i first saw this, it didn't occur to me that there was any other possibility than this guy being a racist.

 

when i first heard about i figured that it must be exaggerated and was prepared not to get bent out of shape about it.

 

he is a complete wank for saying crap like that. i'm a loser for thinking any version of this tirade could be acceptable.

 

the whole thing is just flat out wrong. apology or not. my mom used to tell me that saying you're sorry couldn't undue it, only what you do in the future. sorry doesn't earn you forgiveness, it just means that you realize you fucked up. it doesn't mean you understand or believe how you fucked up.

 

We're all racists, unconsciously. Headline from Los Angeles Times article (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition...1&cset=true.

Bypass registration using BugMeNot(www.bugmenot.com) & Firefox.

 

Seems we all have an unconscious racial bias. Take a test here https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

[archenemy]

I took this test and surprise, I prefer European Americans to African Americans.

I don't think this makes me a racist.

I think that I prefer EA's because I am one and to some degree that preference is inborn. Prefering one's own race is probably natural and is most likely reinforced by one's immediate cultural surroundings. Being hateful toward other races (my very basic definition of racism) is not. In my mind, there is a big difference.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I took this test and surprise, I prefer European Americans to African Americans.

I don't think this makes me a racist.

I think that I prefer EA's because I am one and to some degree that preference is inborn. Prefering one's own race is probably natural and is most likely reinforced by one's immediate cultural surroundings. Being hateful toward other races (my very basic definition of racism) is not. In my mind, there is a big difference.

 

I'm a misanthrope: I hate all people equally.

[G-spotter]

including yourself?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

including yourself?

 

It depends on the day.

[G-spotter]

I love everybody. I am a bundle of joy

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I love everybody. I am a bundle of joy

 

so you swing both ways?

 

[dmuja]

"We're all racists, unconsciously."

 

 

I disagree, not only with the accuracy of this statement, but with its implications and importance.

 

If its true that "We're all racists unconsciously", then accordingly this should be true nearly 100% of the time for the statement to be considered accurate - it is not however, because there are numerous examples of "exceptions" to this assertion which are far too numerous to be explained away as mere random anomaly. If its "true" then one must explain the exceptions.

 

People of differing races interact on all social levels, intermarry, and very often develop deep and lifelong friendships and relationships that clearly transcend conscious or unconscious "racial" mental boundaries and categorizations. With little and often no effort, these "boundaries", "tendencies" or "bias" are either blown away or easily overcome as insubstantial. Given the right environment, they may not even develop in the first place. In other words, they simply don't warrant they level of study and respect we give them.

 

In fact, what we really mean by "racial" is likely always cultural, sub-cultural, and environmental-societal in nature. These aspects of human behavior are a mix of both of conscious and subconscious choice and habits. But just because something is (or more accurately, BECOMES) "subconscious" doesn't mean it is inherent or innate to the natural human condition. There is nothing in nature so malleable as the human mind, nor as hard to define.

 

To say something like "We're all racists" etc.. really says nothing empirically useful nor even true in the long run, for if it were, then there would be no hope at all of overcoming this arbitrary, meaningless and quite shallow quirk of human rationalization (that we seem so bent on excusing for some reason). Certain aspects of human psychology are not that complicated nor are they even that deep.

 

Sometimes people act just dumb as fuck and there is no reasoning that can justify it.

[Chad_A]

"Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for African American compared to European American."

 

I don't know if this is true or not...I'd guess it has more to do with my right vs. left hand coordination while taking the test.

 

I don't know if everyone is a racist , but I do believe that most people have prejudices. It reminds me of a topic covered in my sociology class quite a while back; it was about "freedom" to think. The argument was, well, probably no. Even though all of us feel we have the freedom to think what we want, we have social and cultural pre-programming that affects how we think subconsciously, so in effect, no, we don't think freely. But, hell, I'm no expert...

[Stonehead]

I took this test and surprise, I prefer European Americans to African Americans.

I don't think this makes me a racist.

I think that I prefer EA's because I am one and to some degree that preference is inborn. Prefering one's own race is probably natural and is most likely reinforced by one's immediate cultural surroundings. Being hateful toward other races (my very basic definition of racism) is not. In my mind, there is a big difference.

 

Yes, a lot is about differences in the denotated meaning of words being contaminated by connotations. Most of the objections stated in responses above are considered in their methodology and interpretation of the study.

 

See the Background Information page and check out their FAQs page at the IAT site. The questions and issues surrounding measurement of attitudes, racism vs. prejudice, stereotypes, etc. are answered in some detail. For example, they describe the different between ‘implicit’ and ‘explicit’ attitudes. Especially look at question 13: ‘When will my implicit attitudes agree with explicit attitudes.

 

With regard to methodology, they state the distinction between unwilling and unable. In their words: The unwilling-unable distinction is like the difference between purposely hiding something from others and unconsciously hiding something from yourself. The Implicit Association Test makes it possible to penetrate both of these types of hiding. The IAT measures implicit attitudes and beliefs that people are either unwilling or unable to report.

(from IAT website)

 

I think the conclusion one is likely to reach is that preference is determined by deep-seated cultural factors.

For instance, one surprising revelation is that the statement, children are inherently unbiased (question 10 refers to this commonly held but unsubstantiated belief, in their words: The notion that children are born without preferences toward groups and acquire them as a result of being in a prejudice culture is naïve.). This belief reinforced by promoters of socially liberal attitudes is not borne out by the data. Of course, this isn’t to say that we’re doomed to be racists or prejudiced towards others, it just means that more effort is required to correct these socially reinforced attitudes. How we get there and if we really should, I don’t know.

 

Incidently, one of the researchers is tenured as faculty at UW, Dept of Psychology.

[archenemy]

thanks for pointing me to those FAQs; I'll read them a little more closely. I did happen to see something about the explicit vs implicit, but I didn't read it b/c mine matched up. At the beginning of the test they asked about your preference. I stated that I had a moderate preference for EAs than for AAs. I recognize that, have no problem with it, and don't consider it racist. I wouldn't hire an EA over an AA on the basis of race. I wouldn't prefer to work or study with an EA over an AA. However, I cannot deny that my closest friends are EA and I have dated only one person outside the EA description. From this personal history, I draw the obvious conclusion that I have a moderate preference for EAs.

 

The other point I think of mentioning is that one's inherent belief system is not as important as one's actions when it comes to racism or sexism. I can only relate to sexist bias b/c that is all I am affected by in our culture. I work in a male dominated field and often deal with sexist attitudes as well as some downright mysogynistic folks. I accept people's right to believe whatever they want; including believing that I couldn't possibly be as bright as a man. However, at work I expect to be treated cordially and repectfully by other coworkers, regardless of their beliefs. In other words, I am fine working with men who have an inherent or learned social preference for other men as long as they are still capable of treating me equally. It sounds like a fine line and it sounds superficial; but hey, its a start. The goal of course is to actually have a positive impact on these folks and perhaps influence them just a bit.

Sometimes I think that happens, sometimes not. again, it's a start.

[mtn_mouse]

I cannot deny that my closest friends are EA and I have dated only one person outside the EA description.

 

Ever date a mouse?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I cannot deny that my closest friends are EA and I have dated only one person outside the EA description.

 

Ever date a mouse?

 

Chicks of mixed races are often hot. Especially Euro+NonEuro

 

:-)

 

 

[G-spotter]

Wider gene pool = fitter offspring.

[Dechristo]

Jerry Seinfeld and George Castanza

 

Edited November 28, 2006 by Dechristo