fear_and_greed Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 In a few short years during WW2 the concerted efforts US and allied scientists made it possible to produce nuclear weapons. For $20 billion in todays dollars the jump in technology was astounding. The occupation of Iraq has already cost 1/3 of a trillion dollars. Instead of leaving a legacy of debt and destruction, think of the alternative fuel research that could be done for that. The decline of petroleum sources is very real is not going to go away. The impact of first dwindling then non existent supplies will change the "civilized world" back to the horse and buggy era unless new sources are discovered, developed, brought to mass market and adopted. Think also of the education, health care and infrastructure programs that could be put in place for these dollars. I don't understand why the smart people in the US are not totally and absolutely disgusted with the direction their government is heading. A movement that cannot be silenced is required to bring the truth to light and act upon it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 The War in Iraq has been classic boil the frog. Â These people want to kill us. It will be easy. The cost will be about $65 billion. Â Ooops. Maybe they didn't have the weapons to kill us, but don't worry this will be easy. Cost about $100 billion. Â Oh shit. If we leave now all those dead soldiers will be sacfriced for nothing and chaos will ensue, repeat until 2008. Costs continue to mount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 time for some stone soup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Think also of the education, health care and infrastructure programs that could be put in place for these dollars. I don't understand why the smart people in the US are not totally and absolutely disgusted with the direction their government is heading. Â We're too busy fighting for grant money so that we have a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 We're counting on Europe and Canada. They have a fraction of our millitary spending, and look at all of the world-changing innovation and high quality research that they crank out every year. Â The fundamental problem with the set of assumptions that you bring to this hypothetical is that you are assuming that crisis-spending would occur in the absence of the said crisis. I don't see any evidence that this assumption is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 We're counting on Europe and Canada. They have a fraction of our millitary spending, and look at all of the world-changing innovation and high quality research that they crank out every year. www.skype.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 crisis-spending would occur in the absence of the said crisis. In what way does the $7-9 billion an month we're blowing on Iraq constitute crisis spending? A crisis of our own making, perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 crisis-spending would occur in the absence of the said crisis. In what way does the $7-9 billion an month we're blowing on Iraq constitute crisis spending? A crisis of our own making, perhaps. Â Don't you sleep safer at night knowing Saddam Hussein isn't pointing the WMD he didn't have at you and isn't training the terrorists who weren't there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 crisis-spending would occur in the absence of the said crisis. In what way does the $7-9 billion an month we're blowing on Iraq constitute crisis spending? A crisis of our own making, perhaps. I am afraid that all our crisis are of our own making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 WWII or Iraq - in either case, I'm not sure that the assumption that moneys spent on either would necessarily be raised by the government had the millitary action not occured, and it's even less likely that had an equivalent amount of money been spent, that it would be spent on programs that are essentially discretionary. Â Is there any evidence of a correlation between millitary spending and innovation, or a lack thereof? I'm certainly not aware of any. I won't have time to dig it up today, but the data I've seen does support a fairly clear link between more mundane "retail" level issues that government has a role in, like the amount of time it takes to get a permit to open a business, the clarity and enforceability of patent law, etc. There's also a pretty clear link between the quality and quantity of a nation's research institutions and innovation, which does tie into government spending and funding priorities, but the US has managed to do reasonably well in this area as well, despite the magnitude of our millitary spending. Â Another important factor in fostering innovation is an ability to attract and retain the best minds, and now that talented people in China and India can pursue careers in their own countries, our capabilities in this area might take a serious hit. Â In short, I don't think it's as simple as "No Millitary Spending = Outburst of Innovation," and all you need to verify that is to look at the trajectory of European science relative to the rest of the world since WWII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 In short, I don't think it's as simple as "No Millitary Spending = Outburst of Innovation," and all you need to verify that is to look at the trajectory of European science relative to the rest of the world since WWII. Â I love your dogma JayB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 You should write a book. Â I think a lot of people would appreciate learning about our economics as they apply to the issues that the general public thinks/talks about and the issues that affect them. Your language is accessible as well as personable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 How funny--that was two totally different reactions to what you wrote!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Wait in line 'Till your time Ticking clock Everyone stop  Everyone's saying different things to me Different things to me Everyone's saying different things to me Different things to me  Woooohh Do you believe In what you see There doesn't seem to be anybody else who agrees with me  Do you believe In what you see Motionless wheel Nothing is real Wasting my time In the waiting line Do you believe in What you see  Nine to five Living lies Everyday Stealing time Everyone's taking everything they can Everything they can Everyone's taking everything they can Everything they can  Woooohh Do you believe In what you feel It doesn't seem to be anybody else who agrees with me  Do you believe In what you see Motionless wheel Nothing is real Wasting my time In the waiting line Do you believe In what you see  Ah and I'll shout and I'll scream But I'd rather not be seen And I'll hide away for another day  Do you believe In what you see Motionless wheel Nothing is real Wasting my time In the waiting line Do you believe In what you see  Everyone's saying different things to me Different things to me Different things to me Different things to me Different things to me Everyone's taking everything they can Everything they can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 How funny--that was two totally different reactions to what you wrote!!!!!!!! Yes, I find JayB's continued insistence that Europe is a monolith devoid of invention, innovation and science compared to the rest of the world because of their draconian taxation and social practices terribly amusing, not to mention counter to fact. Â As for "trajectory" one need only compare Europe relative to S. America and Africa to see who the real losers have been in the last 6 decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkeller Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I could find a lot of better ways to spend the money we are wasting in Iraq. Â Down here in Medford, they are trying to pass a $180 million bond to rebuild most of the schools. What's that, like 1 day of Iraq spending? Â Also the VA hospital down here was built before/during WWII. They keep patching and fixing, but the place is a wreck. It is truly sad how we treat our veterans. For a billion dollars, hell, even 500 million, they could build a world class health care facility. Â Unfortunately, the money being spent in Iraq is not actual money - it is all deficit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 How funny--that was two totally different reactions to what you wrote!!!!!!!! Yes, I find JayB's continued insistence that Europe is a monolith devoid of invention, innovation and science compared to the rest of the world because of their draconian taxation and social practices terribly amusing, not to mention counter to fact. Â As for "trajectory" one need only compare Europe relative to S. America and Africa to see who the real losers have been in the last 6 decades. I missed the relative dearth of invention serving as the thrust of his argument. Â and why only go back 6 decades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I missed the relative dearth of invention serving as the thrust of his argument.  and why only go back 6 decades?  all you need to verify that is to look at the trajectory of European science relative to the rest of the world since WWII. We're counting on Europe and Canada. They have a fraction of our millitary spending, and look at all of the world-changing innovation and high quality research that they crank out every year  manifesto would be a better term for his tome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 So he is asking you to do what the thread proposes is a good thing--research. But that was a side note that serves as evidence; not, as far as I could see, the essence of the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Â You shoulda been gone! knowing how I made you feel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 And a manifesto comes from Latin "manifestus" which means evident. So I think you are right on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 How funny--that was two totally different reactions to what you wrote!!!!!!!! Yes, I find JayB's continued insistence that Europe is a monolith devoid of invention, innovation and science compared to the rest of the world because of their draconian taxation and social practices terribly amusing, not to mention counter to fact. Â As for "trajectory" one need only compare Europe relative to S. America and Africa to see who the real losers have been in the last 6 decades. Â If the claim that there was an explicit tradeoff between millitary expenditures and research and innovation was valid, you'd expect Europe to be the clear global leader in this regard, with it's lead over the US increasing every year in direct proportion to the gap between the percent of GDP that the US dedicates to millitary spending, and the percentage of GDP that Europe dedicates to millitary spending. This just hasn't happened, so I think the fact that if anything, the relative contributions of Europeans to scientific discoveries and commercial innovation has declined since they became de-facto protectorates of the US suggests that the connection between millitary spending and innovation is not a direct or simple one, and depends on quite a few other variables that are at play in any given society. Â I do think that Europe has deep structural problems that have contributed to it's decline as a driver of innovation relative to the rest of the world, and that those will become even more accute in the next 20-30 years, but that's a topic for another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Man of Festus? Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 If the claim that there was an explicit tradeoff between millitary expenditures and research and innovation was valid, you'd expect Europe to be the clear global leader in this regard  No, I'd expect Japan to be the clear leader - constitutionally obligated to pacifism - minimal overseas military presence. And guess what? They are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Man of Festus?  FESTIVUS for the rest of us!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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