scrambled_legs Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I'm not sure if someone already posted this but looks like big brother is going to axe the funding for topographic maps. There's a number of personal addresses below to flood with e-mails requesting that they don't. Natural Resources Canada to discontinue printing of topographic maps Published Saturday, September 24, 2005 by CCAer | E-mail this post The following is a copy of an email sent from Brad Green, President of World of Maps, a seller of maps, including Natural Resources Canada’s line of topographic maps, the National Topographic System maps. Essentially, NRCan is looking to discontinue printing its own maps and is seeking to focus on maintaining its digital data. Brad Green has provided essential NRCan contacts on this issue, including the current Minister of Natural Resources, John Efford. These are listed below. Below this listing of contacts is his letter regarding NRCan’s decision. John Dawson A/Director CTI-O, ESS/GC-MSB/CTI-O Natural Resources Canada 615 Booth Street, 07Ath Floor, Room. 712 Ottawa, ON Canada K1A 0E9 Telephone: (613) 947-0112 Fax : (613) 995-2000 E-mail: john.dawson@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca Jean Cooper Director General, ESS/GC-MSB Natural Resources Canada 615 Booth Street, 07Ath Floor, Room. 718 Ottawa, ON Canada K1A 0E9 Telephone: (613) 947-0793 Fax : (613) 995-2000 E-mail: Jean.Cooper@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca Richard B. Fadden Deputy Minister, DMO/DMO Natural Resources Canada 580 Booth Street, 21st Floor, Room. B5-1 Ottawa, ON Canada K1A 0E4 Telephone: (613) 992-3280 Fax : (613) 992-3828 E-mail: Richard.Fadden@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca John Efford Minister of Natural Resources Canada, MINO/DO Natural Resources Canada 580 Booth Street, 21st Floor, Room. C7-1 Ottawa, ON Canada K1A 0E4 Telephone: (613) 996-2007 Fax : (613) 996-4516 E-mail: john.efford@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Green To: Cheryl Woods Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:20 PM Subject: NRCan announces end to paper topo maps Jan 2007 Dear Cheryl, Would you please send this note to the CARTA list and any other interested parties. If you agree with me that this is a very bad policy decision (abandoning paper topographic maps) could you please assist me in making this fact known. Thanks, Brad Green President, World of Maps Inc. Sept 22, 2005 On September 7, 2005 Natural Resources Canada invited the Regional Distribution Center (RDC) business representitives from across Canada to hear the bleak future prospect for paper topographic maps in Canada. The meeting was chaired by Mr. John Dawson, Acting Director Centre for Topographic Information. Other government representatives attending are: Ms. Jean Cooper, Director General, Mapping Services Branch Barbara MacIntosh, Manager CMO Marjo Lalonde, Supervisor John Donner, CTI Sylvain Lemay, CTI Pat Fish, CTI Donna Williams, Atlas of Canada Steve Westley, Atlas of Canada Craig Stewart, Geo Connections Current plans from the federal government is that the Canada Map Office (CMO) is to be permanently closed at the end of the current business lease for the 130 Bentley Ave warehouse in Jan 2007. The CMO has already discontinued press runs of all NTS maps. The CMO now wants to discontinue printing - plotting paper maps of any sort (currently a plotter is used to replenish out of print paper maps). The CMO states that paper maps are not their "raison d'etre" they want to concern themselves with the digital map files only, they claim because that is better but I am convinced their real motivation is simply because they think digital data is cheaper than a warehouse of paper maps. The CMO proposal at the moment is that RDC's would access vector data and produce paper maps for sale. The actual exact method this will take is unknown, a presentation by PCI Geomatics of a map server model they developed was given. World of Maps Inc. is an RDC and there are ten other private and government agencies acting as RDC's across Canada. This distribution network for selling paper topographic maps has been established successfully for about 10 years. There are also thousands of smaller retail dealers across the country as well. The users of topographic maps (our customers) are from various groups including: Search & Rescue, Forest Fire crews, Hunters, Fishermen, Outdoor recreation users, Engineering firms, Environmental firms, developers, Oil & Gas Pipeline companies, Mining firms, University field workers and many other organizations and individuals. The issue of the old dates of topographic maps was raised at the meeting as it always is, this time used as a reason to discontinue paper maps. (NRCan policy decisions to cut costs some years ago was to no longer update any more paper topo maps) The majority of the Canadian landmass is unpopulated, and there is likely no difference to when the paper maps was originally produced. That small percentage of topographic maps near populated areas are indeed quite old and that is important. Our experience is that people use topographic maps for either remote areas or for the actual accurate geographic information and the date of the maps is not as important a factor. The government claims that they have up-to-date digital vector map data (their demonstation map at this meeting did not support that claim however) and it appears to me that the government feels that there is no longer any need to continue to produce paper maps. The quality of the demonstration topo map produced was inferior in quality to a regular paper topo map with that typical computer generated "schematic" look. While the demo map featured an old road network presumably once operational the main advantage of this type of product is that it is "more up-to-date" as I pointed out above that is not relevant to most of the Canadian landmass. The RDC's were told that if there is a business case it is up to each individual RDC to purchase a large format printer and necessary software to print and distribute topographic maps in the future because the government policy at this time is to abandon paper maps as much as possible. In my opinion it is the responsibility of the federal government to continue to produce paper maps of the Canadian landmass for Canadian taxpayers. If indeed the digital vector map data can be used to produce a more up to date paper map it is the responsibilty of the government to do that. Our business has the printing facilities to produce maps as suggested but I would prefer to be able to do that AND continue to access the existing paper maps at the CMO because despite being old they are of better quality and paid for in full by Canadian taxpayers. I intend to make this issue known to all interested parties, please contact me if you agree and can help in any way. Faithfully, Brad Green President -- ========= World of Maps Inc. ========= The Source for Geographic and Travel information 1235 Wellington St. Ottawa, ON, Canada, K1Y 3A3 Telephone (613) 724-6776 -OR- 1-800-214-8524 Fax. (613) 724-7776 or 1-800-897-9969 http://www.worldofmaps.com mailto: info@worldofmaps.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Phil Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Previous discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 Not sure why it was put into route reports for BC, kinda obvious why not many people saw it. As far as what people were saying on that post about another company taking the images and producing the maps, it won't happen. The government wants out because it costs a fortune to produce these maps and sell them at a fraction of the cost, not to sell the rights to another company. The company most active in fighting this proposal is Map World. If they could take the images and print the maps themselves with no middle man costs, and sell them for about the same retail cost, they'd be supporting it. It's a government funded program to allow the public access to neccessary maps at a reasonable cost. A company might take up printing them in the future, but expect to pay about $50-$100 per chart. As for me, to not have a large size detailed print on water and tear resistant paper is going to suck. I think its worth firing off a couple of e-mails to possibly stop the proposal. Not looking forward to lining up a couple of sheets of paper while trying to hold them in place and not let them get wet so the ink doesn't run and they fall apart. If you plan on spending any time on long Alpine trips where you actually cover horizontal ground, you should be concerned about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 A company might take up printing them in the future, but expect to pay about $50-$100 per chart. Your head is so far up your ass you should install a picture window in your bellybutton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 And the little gay teddy bear speaks again... So why would Map World be fighting like crazy to keep the government from stopping production??? If there was money to be made at the current retail prices, they'd be jumping all over it pushing for the printers to stop. Right now your tax dollars are making up for the production costs, it is not a money making business. If you have some sort of reason for thinking otherwise, I'd love to hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 MapWorld is fighting like crazy because they currently buy subsidized maps from the government for cheap and sell them at retail. If they have to print themself and sell them at the same price, they will lose that subsidized profit margin and thus their profits will go down. Your tax dollars are currently keeping Map World in business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 And the government supplies those maps to everyone so if mapworld is making such huge profit margins, why doesn't someone undercut them and why can you purchase the maps directly from the government for the same price? Get rid of the government subsidization and expect the map retail costs to increase by 5 times or more especially seeing as whoever produces the maps has a monopoly until competition opens up. Either way $50-100 isn't unrealistic for the current water and rip resitant maps we receive now. Mapworlds profits would go down if they continued to sell their personally printed maps for the same price as the government subsidized ones, that's why the retail prices will go up significantly to recoup the losses. The only difference is Mapworld would be one of the only businesses with enough sales to make printing the maps worth while. They would have just created a monopoly for themselves, you couldn't buy them anywhere else. I swear that every time your little gay bear bounces, you lose an IQ mark, and everytime you post, you lose 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 How many book publishers own their own printing press? Why would map publishers have to own their own map printer? You can bet I won't be paying for Cdn Topographic Maps ever again if this goes thru, cause I have a map printer at work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 How many books are published by the government then after the rights are released, republished by the public? How many books are published by several different companies? The government isn't selling the publishing rights, they're simply stopping printing. They no longer want to pay more then the public pays them to print paper copies of maps. Who is going to pay for the rights (if the government sells the printing rights or even gives them away), then pay for the building, the printer, the paper, the ink, the utilities, the employees etc. all to make a hanfull of topographic maps that sell for $10 a piece??? If there is enough demand to produce them, you bet they won't be selling for $10. Good for you, you have a map printer at work. Does it print on water/tear resistent paper with waterproof ink? Unfortunately the other 99.9% of us don't have such good luck and will get stuck paying an arm and a leg for a good map or printing off a shitty one on a canon and blank piece of paper. Once again Dru, if you don't give a shit about the subject, don't bother replying. This is going to suck for a lot of us and we could care less if it doesn't bother you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 You are so dumb I'm laughing at you cause you are so dumb, you don't even realize how dumb you are. i have here in front of me an ITMB 1:100K map of the Baker and Chilliwack Valley areas. printed on waterproof, tear-resistant paper using dtopographic ata sourced from both the Canadian and American governments. how much did it cost? $7.99. gosh! that's a lot less than $50. How DID they ever manage to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 Uhhh, maybe because on that $7.99 that you paid, they pocketed -$42. Those maps are paid for with our tax dollars and the $8 just helps balance costs with production numbers. Get it yet???? You paid $7.99, the taxpayers paid $42. That's why they want to stop printing them, it costs them money to sell them. They don't make any money off of the measly $7.99 cents you paid, it costs them $50 of which you paid back $8 and all of our taxes paid $42. Understand yet??? If they made money they wouldn't be trying to shut it down, they'd be selling the printing rights, which they're not because no-one is interested. Keep bouncing fairy... pretty soon you won't be smart enough to know how to post, then we can all breath easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justplanecrazy Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Well not sure why G-spotter is so bent on ignoring the issue and letting the convienient and cheap maps dissapear. I for one agree with Legs and think that there will be not be a topographic map printed after the government shuts down the printers in Jan. 2007. In fact there are so many people that agree with legs that they've come up with their own website and I encourage you to visit it and take a second to send an e-mail or phone your MLA. If you like topos and want to be able to continue to buy them for $7.99 like g-spotter just did, then take a moment and write in. Thanks in advance for anyone that takes the time to do so. www.mapsforcanadians.ca Oh and G-spotter please take a business course then listen again to what legs is saying before making a fool of yourself. Printing of Paper Topographic Maps Being Discontinued As of January 2007, Natural Resources Canada will discontinue the printing of paper topographic maps and will close the Canada Map Office. Our government wants to get out of the business of producing maps. Many Canadians place a priority on the paper map service the Government currently provides. Natural Resources Canada's digital mapping policy will effectively cut off access to the majority of Canadians. However, our politicians see this issue as a minor one. ACMLA, which represents both the public and research communities, would like to convince them otherwise. This policy will have an enormous impact on the Canadian public and our map users. The Minister of Natural Resources has a responsibility to listen to our point of view. This is not a minor policy amendment but a major change that has implications not just for map librarians but for the ordinary Canadian who is looking for a map for their cottage or who wants to go snowmobiling or hiking. Canada can be a vast and unforgiving country without a map in hand. How you can help: This is a political issue and we must get the message out to as many Canadians and organizations as soon as possible. An independent website has been set up to lobby and inform Canadians. ACMLA asks its members to support this initiative by sending emails to inform associations, university departments, schools, individuals, etc. of the Government of Canada's decision to abandon printing paper topographic maps. Let your M.P. and your Minister of Natural Resources know what their constituents think of this decision. www.mapsforcanadians.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Uhhh, maybe because on that $7.99 that you paid, they pocketed -$42. Those maps are paid for with our tax dollars and the $8 just helps balance costs with production numbers. Get it yet???? You paid $7.99, the taxpayers paid $42. That's why they want to stop printing them, it costs them money to sell them. They don't make any money off of the measly $7.99 cents you paid, it costs them $50 of which you paid back $8 and all of our taxes paid $42. Understand yet??? If they made money they wouldn't be trying to shut it down, they'd be selling the printing rights, which they're not because no-one is interested. Keep bouncing fairy... pretty soon you won't be smart enough to know how to post, then we can all breath easy. Let me spell it out for you in small words This is a private map The government did not print it A private company did It cost $7.99 Not $50 to $100 You Are Full Of Shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justplanecrazy Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 One more thing, a number of the e-mail addresses that Legs posted, are not active. It's best to e-mail the minister of Natural Resources Gary Lunn at Gary.Lunn@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca as well as e-mail your MLA. You can find your MLA's address by using this website: http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/index.asp?Language=E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justplanecrazy Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 G-spotter, what private company is printing topo's? The only ones that I have or have ever seen are produced by NRCan. Are they available in Tyvek? Who printed it? Who produced it? Where can you buy it? Does it cover all of Canada or is it just available for a hadfull of popular areas across Canada? It'd be nice if you would provide some information rather than just ridicule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Private map publishers? -International Travel Maps and Books (ITMB) in Vancouver -GemTrek in Calgary -Clover Point Cartographics in Victoria to name a few. John Baldwin does a waterproof, tear-resistant 1:25,000 topo map of the Spearhead Traverse area (for a good example of a very specialized, small volume niche product) that retails for $19.95 Elaho Publishing distributes a 1:25,000 topo of the Waddington area - another good example of a small-market niche product - that retails for $19.95 We sell Clover Point's 1:20,000 topos for $17.95 I won't be surprised if the 1:50,000 topos end up costing more than $11.45, but I'm pretty certain they won't be anywhere near the $50 - $100 range. And if it's true that the government loses $42.00 on every topo they sell , then - speaking on behalf of taxpayers everywhere - the sooner they stop, the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justplanecrazy Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I think the point was an international service, meaning anywhere across Canada, not the few very popular areas where topos are in high demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) I can have a 1:20,000 topo (20m contours) of any location in BC ready for you to pick up on Thursday, maybe even Wednesday. Just tell me which sheet to order. $17.95 for a map with 2 1/2 times the detail of the NTS sheets is not a bad deal. And for considerably less than $50 - $100 per sheet. I don't know if they have access to data files for other provinces because the question has never come up, but when I place my fill-in order on Tuesday I'll ask them. The over-riding point here is that if Clover Point can produce good-quality 1:20,000 maps that retail for $17.95, then they or someone like them can produce 1:50,000 maps for something in the $12 - $15 range. Are they doing it yet? No, of course not. As long as the government was producing them (apparently at a staggering loss), no private publisher would bother duplicating the product. But with the government out of the map-printing business, I predict it won't take long for someone to start. Edited October 9, 2006 by murraysovereign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justplanecrazy Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Is that printed on Tyvek with waterproof ink? It seems funny that there are so many people concerned about this that a website was started and companys like Map World are the ones complaining the loudest. If they can be produced for the same price as Map World was paying to receive them from the government, why would they care if they got them from the government or the printers down the road? Is that $12 - $15 what it costs them just for the paper and ink? If so I doubt a $3 retail mark up will pay for all the other costs involved in running a printing business as well as a map store. The map store alone will probably mark it up $3-5 and the printing store is where you have all your expenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Currently the paper 1:50,000 topos retail for $11.45, and the tyvek versions retail for $14.95. I would expect any privately produced topos would reflect a similar price differential between paper and tyvek, for the simple reason that tyvek maps cost more to produce than the paper ones. I have no idea what the actual price will be. All I can say with any certainty is that it won't be anywhere near $50 - $100 per sheet. But as I keep pointing out, paper topo maps at 1:20,000 scale, 20m contours, and full colour, can be produced privately at low enough cost that they retail for $17.95. So it shouldn't require massive government subsidies for someone to produce a smaller, less-detailed map that retails for less than $17.95, probably somewhere in the $12 - $15 dollar range. Add tyvek to the equation, and the retail price would be somewhat higher, maybe an extra 20 - 25%, but again, nowhere near $50 - $100. Why are MapTown and other distributors fighting this? I don't know. Probably because much like people everywhere, they don't like change. None of us do - we all prefer whenever possible to continue doing exactly whatever it is we're doing right now. Until we start doing something else, that is, and then we want to continue doing that. Right now, the distributors have it pretty easy - wait for a retailer like myself to e-mail them an order (they don't even have to answer the phone, for chrissakes), pull the order off the shelf, and send it out in the mail. Then they wait for my cheque to arrive. It's easy money. Once in a while they have to make a list of the maps they've sold out of, and place an order with the office in Ottawa. But if they have to start printing the maps themselves, well that's just more work, isn't it? It's also more profit for them, and deep down inside they know that, but it's just such a hassle, you know? Even if some else starts printing the maps and they continue just acting as the middle-man, they still have to set up a new account with the new publisher, and change all the addresses in their supplier files, and then the new guys will do things slightly differently than the government guys do things, so they'll have to adjust to that, and they'll use different forms than the government, and they'll have to train their staff how to fill in the new forms, and it's all just such a hassle, you know? Imagine if the present situation was reversed, if the maps were presently being printed by private companies, and the federal government announced they were going to go into the business of printing topos. The private map companies would be screaming and howling just as loudly that the government is going to squeeze them out of business and the consumer will be left with no choice but to buy government-issued maps, and there'll be no competition, and no selection, and prices will rise, and quality will go down, and oh my God we're all going to die lost and starving in the woods because we'll have no way of knowing where we are. Basically the same arguments they're using now in the face of the government's announcement that they're getting out of the map-printing business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Jesus just go out and buy all the maps you'll ever need I have a box with like 75 of em. Or just go copy them from the Van library Or, if you're really cheap http://maps.gov.bc.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 people are kicking up a fuss cause if you, on a whim, want to buy a copy of some really obscure corner of the NWT, like say 105 L/6, they might not have it in stock , and you might have to (gasp) print on demand. P.o.D. like clover point already does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 FYI: At least two map distributors are going to be printing 1:50,000 topos. MapTown will be running standard NTS maps on a plotter - lighter paper than at present, but same map. Some sort of waterproof paper version is also being researched, but not tyvek. Once they've been running for a while I suspect they may upgrade their equipment to run heavier grades of paper. I know of some people in Ottawa who will be selling some good quality used printing equipment in the next little while, so maybe they'll put in a bid? Another company tells me they will be running 1:50,000 topos for all of Canada using a different data base than the NTS, fully updated to at least the millenium. They're still developing the product, but it shouldn't be too long before they're ready to go - next spring some time? I don't know if they have waterproof options in the works, but I've suggested they look into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justplanecrazy Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Thanks Murray, at least someone on here can present a logical argument. Sounds like your right and its a bunch of people stirring the masses for no reason. I wasn't really looking forward to a soggy bunch of small paper sections with the ink running, taped together with duct tape to make a full map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponzini Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) Jesus just go out and buy all the maps you'll ever need I have a box with like 75 of em. Or just go copy them from the Van library The SFU map room had a map-sized photocopier (as of 2004, at least) and you could copy their maps onto same sized sheets for $2 each. Make a day of it! Black & white maps aren't the greatest, but it's a good deal if you're on a budget. Edited October 12, 2006 by Ponzini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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