counterfeitfake Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 Yeah, putting wires on a wiregate is a good way to lose 'em. I also started getting frustrated recently with normal hooked 'biners catching on my gear sling, so I started racking only with keylock 'biners. I'd rather carry more weight than deal with that hook. I think maybe the ultimate racking 'biner would be a wire keylocker, like the Wild Country Helium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 I like the Helium's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enelson Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 do not using these deadly dogbone draws please. Thank you. um, whats the problem here? not trying to be an ass, the guy just told me to buy them, i kinda thought they were all like that and just went climbing. so sure, make fun of me for being in that 98% that don't know what they are doing, i just wanted to go climb. a serious explaination of the rubber thingy would be nice, i'm just at work trying to ease a bit of my ignorance (though it won't stop me from climbing.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmace Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 you guys are very whiny..wow you actually care how biners go on your harness...thats honestly freakn crazy....I couldnt care less. Dog bone draws can have their biner orientatd any way you want..the rigid plastic thing is the end that attaches to the rope so when you clip, the biner does not move around...you do not clip this end to the bolt or the pro.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 you guys are very whiny..wow you actually care how biners go on your harness...thats honestly freakn crazy....I couldnt care less. Dog bone draws can have their biner orientatd any way you want..the rigid plastic thing is the end that attaches to the rope so when you clip, the biner does not move around...you do not clip this end to the bolt or the pro.. There are a few biners that are captive at both ends. It's an old rant of Chuck's, so old it's now an inside joke. DEADLY DOGBONES!!!!! You will die! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 do not using these deadly dogbone draws please. Thank you. um, whats the problem here? not trying to be an ass, the guy just told me to buy them, i kinda thought they were all like that and just went climbing. so sure, make fun of me for being in that 98% that don't know what they are doing, i just wanted to go climb. a serious explaination of the rubber thingy would be nice, i'm just at work trying to ease a bit of my ignorance (though it won't stop me from climbing.) Dogbone draws are more likely to result in the "magic unclipping trick" if you fall on them while backclipped. They are also more likely to make your cams walk into cracks. (This was likely a factor in a well publicized fatal accident at Vantage a few years ago. CLICK HERE for more info) They are also more likely to do weird rotation things around bolts and come unclipped than a floppy draw. They DO make clipping easier though which is why they are still used. They can be nice to have while sprot climbing because they are stiff and you can hold them like a stick to clip that bolt that is just a little out of reach from your secure stance and they also make it easier to clip the rope to a freehanging draw because they don't flop around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimbingPanther Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 but i have to say that there was one case where i had a draw come completely unclipped w/o a fall once for me...the roof out on Kings of Rap has a bolt in the middle of the wall as you traverse out...the quickdraw "rolled" over the top of the bolt (a metolius ring bolt) and unclipped itself from just the pull of the rope as i pulled out and around the roof into the jug. Dude, this same thing happened to me at Vantage once. I looked down below me and still can't figure out exactly how it got that way, but it was upside down and pressed into the bolt with the gate being held open. Not completely unclipped yet, but still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 They are also more likely to do weird rotation things around bolts and come unclipped than a floppy draw. I had one do this just this past Sunday as I pulled the extra rope through it to belay the second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 I looked down below me and still can't figure out exactly how it got that way, It's not rocket science. Go get a bolt hanger and a draw and mess around with them. You will quickly see how that can happen. It's only happened to me once. Belayer: "Dude!, your last draw fell off!" Me: "Huh. That's crazy." As I clipped the next bolt from a good stance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enelson Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 i like the deadly dogbones cause with the stiffness i can clip them into the bolts with my toes as i am pulling myself past each bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 i like the deadly dogbones cause with the stiffness i can clip them into the bolts with my toes as i am pulling myself past each bolt. You should consider a career in the circus. I met a girl in Vegas who makes a living shooting a bow and arrow with her feet while doing handstands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimbingPanther Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 Yeah, it's easy to MAKE it happen by moving the draw around with your hand, but how can the rope pull the draw up above the bolt? That's where I'm not sure what happened. I'd love to know so it only happens to me once as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enelson Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 could be better than my current job, thats true (sidenote, why does it seem every climber hates their job? and "cause climbing isn't a job" is the smart ass response i already thought of. new topic maybe?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dt_3pin Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 Climbing Panther and MattP, how were the draws that unclipped set up? Gates opposed or facing the same direction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 Read this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share Posted September 22, 2006 i like the deadly dogbones cause with the stiffness i can clip them into the bolts with my toes as i am pulling myself past each bolt. You should consider a career in the circus. I met a girl in Vegas who makes a living shooting a bow and arrow with her feet while doing handstands. I met a girl who made a career by shooting ping pong balls out of... oh nevermind. I only use the wires for the draws, I still rack the gear with solid gates. Anyone try the DMM shield biner? It's a wire but the wire twists to avoid the big hook nose that tends to unclip gear. Might be the best of both worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmace Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 cause climbing isn't a job" thank god or id hate that too!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Climbing Panther and MattP, how were the draws that unclipped set up? Gates opposed or facing the same direction? I don't know the answer to that question. It was a draw from "the other guy's rack" and I don't care enough which way they face to have noticed that particular fact. It was fine when I led on it, but when I started to yard a bunch of rope up through it for a belay, the draw rotated upward and the 'biner unclipped from the rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimbingPanther Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 It's been a while and I can't remember the exact scenario, but I know all my draws have the gates facing the same way, and I think this particular draw was a half-dog-bone, though I don't remember which end had the fixed 'biner (probably the bolt-end, which I think is incorrect, but they don't come with manuals)? This link shows exactly what happened, though I'm still not sure how the draw rotated to get into this position and how to prevent it in the future: http://www.climerware.com/unclip.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mos_Chillin Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Miss Manners says to roll your toilet paper off the front. Any other way is WRONG!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Miss Manners says to roll your toilet paper off the front. Any other way is WRONG!!! NO SHIT! Those backasswards crazy fuckers who do it the fucked up backwards way are fucking fucked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinomyte Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 WWMD??? What Would the Mazamas Do? HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHH!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Your personal draw setup depends on: How you pull them off your harness (thumb inside or outside) What gives you an inch or two extra reach to the hanger (dependent on how your are holding the draw when you pulled it off your harness). How you stablize the draw on overhanging ground or when it is swinging in the wind. The arguement for safety that BD makes about gate direction may matter for a few pitches but shouldn't be considered law. Clipping draws is all about speed. Many long time sport climbers have whippered 5,000 or more times. People have been rigging biners different ways on draws for ages. My two cents worth. Anybody remember the quickdraw that had a half twist in it? That was a scary draw! It was designed for smith!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmuja Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 My "personal" set up.. dog bones (bolt climbs only) biners facing same dir.. gear biners (prefer dmm specters, helium, or bd keylocks) clipped on a sling, biner gates facing me.. runners for trad, singles, made of that thin skinny shit "dyneema" with a lone helium wire gate - I don't get why one needs to carry 2 biners on all yr runners if you already have one on your pro, maybe for stoppers tho b'cause you probly have them bunched up on one "carry" biner.. btw, the reason for the stiff side on the dogbones is so you can make a difficult long clip by "slapping" the q'draw into the hanger via grabbing the middle of the draw instead of the biner. Its easier to "slap" away from your body than to slap into yr body from the outside. Anyway, the siff side is not for the rope, its for the bolt hanger.. jmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 muja says that the stiff side of the dogbone is for the bolt, and I don't think this is quite correct. Yes, it is true that it works well as muja describes - as a reach extender - to use the stiff end to clip a bolt. However, I believe the reason for the rubber thingy's development was that it kept the active 'biner - the one the rope flutters through - oriented properly. Securely attached to the draw, it cannot flip over so as to become cross loaded when the actual catch is made. The only time I've ever broken a 'biner during a fall was when it ended up cross-loaded. Regardless of which end is which, however, all of this discussion points to the fact that there are all kinds of variables at play, and in each individual case there may be factors that weigh in favor of gates facing the same way vs opposite, stiff vs. floppy draws, etc. There have been lots of times when I've clipped a draw, stood there eyeing the next move, and wondered if it was worth it to reverse the gate or swap for one with a locker on it, or ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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