cappellini Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 this crag is actually an old traditional practice area. all of the irresponsible bolting was done overtop the existing lines....and actually, the "real" start would be lower down on the slabs, closer to the road, above the d.silly tr....the entire butress is climbed easily without any of the retro bolt garbage (in fact all bolts are quite close to excellent gear placements)...the descent is a simple walk off, making absolutely no need for the ridiculous convenience anchors which also appeared in recent years. this buttress has been raped by unscrupulous crack bolters and hippocrits and all of this garbage should be removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Â HERE is a link to some hooplehead's spray about Groundhog Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roboboy Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I agree that most of the junk placed on the route didn't need to be but it's there now and we still had fun. If it's removed someone will probably just replace it, then what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Â It's been a while, but I don't remember any bolts except rap anchors when I did it. Are the other bolts new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) this crag is actually an old traditional practice area. all of the irresponsible bolting was done overtop the existing lines....and actually, the "real" start would be lower down on the slabs, closer to the road, above the d.silly tr....the entire butress is climbed easily without any of the retro bolt garbage (in fact all bolts are quite close to excellent gear placements)...the descent is a simple walk off, making absolutely no need for the ridiculous convenience anchors which also appeared in recent years. this buttress has been raped by unscrupulous crack bolters and hippocrits and all of this garbage should be removed. Other than the anchors, about two or three bolts have been added, on the first pitch only, in places that are run out a bit (no, it wasn't me). Sure, 5.9 climber wouldn't be uncomfortable with the run out in those sections, but this is a good place for 5.7 climbers. Second, the walk off sucks bad. It's sandy and nasty and all the traffic on the delicate soils is bad for the environment. Edited August 23, 2006 by catbirdseat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roboboy Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I think there are two bolts at the beginning of the left side start but none on the regular right side start. I don't recall any other bolts on the route other than rappel stations. There is a separate rappel anchor at the top of the left side start that isn't really needed as there is another easily reached a bit higher where the right side 1st pitch ends. The bolts on the left side do protect a section that is a bit runout at 5.7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I agree that most of the junk placed on the route didn't need to be but it's there now and we still had fun. If it's removed someone will probably just replace it, then what? Â That is the most retarted argument for bolting cracks I've ever heard. Just b/c its there doesn't make it right. There are so many unnecessary bolts around 11worth, its just too bad there are so many unscrupulous individuals that have no problem with installing them on rappel and so many sheep anesthatized by modern convenience culture that they've adopted attitudes such as the one displayed above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roboboy Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 someone will probably just replace it, then what? To me the issue was always damage to the environment, ie bolting natural features like rock, so if bolts are removed, then new holes drilled and bolts replaced, the damage is doubled. It would be great if there was a way to regulate it better but there doesn't seem to be. So, if bolts are chopped on a popular route we probably end up with more replacement bolts, more damage. Â Personally, I wouldn't have thought the left side start pitch was worth placing two bolts for when you can do the right side with natural pro. On the other hand it seems that exit 32/38 routes must have somewhere around 95% bolt protection and it sure has opened up a lot climbing that wouldn't otherwise exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappellini Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 saw off the bolts, if they grow back saw off the bolts, if they grow back saw off the bolts, if they grow back saw off the bolts....end of story  your arguments are hollow...crack bolting is a form of defilement analogous to rape...the rock is inocent and deserving of respect...heinous acts require a reaction no matter how inconvenient it may seem.  here is a graffic analogy for your enlightenment...if someone rapes a child should everyone who wants to rape children continue to rape that child? i mean, after all the damage has been done, just keep raping that child, cuz after all some sick f%%$@k is gonna have fun...why bother punishing the perpetrator and attempting to heal the mind of the victim...clearly this is wrong.....eventually the sickness would spread from child to child, or as we've seen locally from crag to crag...until our culture has been reduced to a vile selfindulgence, not just a hedonistic pursuit.  removing the defilement is the swiftest form of punishment we have for the perpetrators of crack bolting...prison and its associated abuses toward rapists would be more fitting, however we don't have that option...  there is never a justification for bolting over gear..a runout by definition is scary but not life threatening, and a skilled leader can easily protect those pitches within reason..runout yes, life threatening no...not every climb should be chiseled down to the lowest common denominator...go back to the gym or develope your skills appropriately before venturing outside..there is more to climbing than monkey tricks....  "one day the rain's gonna come and wash away all this filth" taxi driver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roboboy Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 it's too bad about the number of bolts on El Cap, sickening in fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 YOU say it's a bolted crack. I don't think that is the case. There are no bolts within 10 ft of protectable cracks, if my memory serves me correctly. The bolts on the route to the left of Groundhog Day, protect against a groundfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 there is never a justification for bolting over gear..a runout by definition is scary but not life threatening, and a skilled leader can easily protect those pitches within reason..runout yes, life threatening no...not every climb should be chiseled down to the lowest common denominator...go back to the gym or develope your skills appropriately before venturing outside..there is more to climbing than monkey tricks.... You are getting all worked up over a beginner's route. Experienced climbers probably would not have trouble protecting those moves with gear, but how many experienced climbers even want to bother with the thing. It's a good route for new leaders to learn on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 YOU say it's a bolted crack. I don't think that is the case. There are no bolts within 10 ft of protectable cracks, if my memory serves me correctly. The bolts on the route to the left of Groundhog Day, protect against a groundfall. Â This issue is much bigger than Groundhog Day, CBS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roboboy Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Maybe April Fool's day ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 This issue is much bigger than Groundhog Day, CBS. Sure, but let's come out and say so. Be very specific. Â I was wondering what you think of The Javelin. That's a bolted crack. Have you led that one on gear? Would you want to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionel_Hutz Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 crack bolting is a form of defilement analogous to rape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I was wondering what you think of The Javelin. That's a bolted crack. Have you led that one on gear? Would you want to? Â Yes I have. I found it more difficult leading it with gear, but not unsafe or unreasonable. Those bolts should be removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 crack bolting is a form of defilement analogous to rape  Do you suggest that the cracks consented to bolting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I was wondering what you think of The Javelin. That's a bolted crack. Have you led that one on gear? Would you want to? Â Yes I have. I found it more difficult leading it with gear, but not unsafe or unreasonable. Those bolts should be removed. That is impressive. How did you do it, layback or straight in jamming or both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Its layback / undercling. I'm not a good enough climber to climb anything impressive; once it gets difficult its about two moves from being over. Plus its bomber gear. Â I can see why some flake climbs are bolted, like Waverly Wafer in the valley. But Javelin is a lot more solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) I can't help but ask what you thought of Waverly Wafer? Â EDIT: Edited August 23, 2006 by Peter_Puget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I do get those climbs somewhat confused. Waverly Wafer is the 5.9 bolted flake, correct? Â I remember it to be a super fun, straight forward but strenuous 5.9. The flake is clearly somewhat delicate and its easy to see how a fall on gear in the flake would be unsafe and may even destroy the flake. Strict purists may rue such bolt placements, but I thought in that case they were reasonable. Â Perhaps another apt comparison is Perry's Layback on the Grand Wall. Obviously not delicate or lacking good gear, but you'd need about 6 #5's to protect it. hard to say from an ethical point of view, but I sure had fun climbing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Nope it's not a 5.9 flake. Â Keep the shit rollin' boys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Whatever, dude, it was called Wheet Thin. Â So what I got the name of some dumb climb confused with another. Waverley Wafer is the 10c finger to chimney in the general vicinity. Did that one too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 DUDE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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