Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • olyclimber

      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
Sign in to follow this  
Gary_Yngve

gym to outdoors / top-rope to multipitch

Recommended Posts

ONE MUST MAINTAIN 104% VIGILENCE AT ALL TIMES! Every MILISECOND!

 

you could DIE!

 

I was thinking of practices that would correct, or cause you to notice, errors when you aren't 100% vigilant..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's the gravity-monkey on your back, waiting for you to (used so often in this thread, i have to) FUCK up! Pay attention. None of us want to carry out your gear!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 things 1 know:

 

1st) Rudy and Gosolo definatively and authratitively answered this about 20 posts ago.

 

2nd) I can't spell for shit.

___________________________________________

 

I like that "gravity monkee" thing you posted which we all carry on our back. None of us is immune from a mistake. None of us.

 

As we learn we get better at analysing and avoiding them is all.

 

There is no immunity.

 

Ever.

 

Gravity Rules......always.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

before I begin - just so there's no confusion - montypiton is actually haireball - "technical difficulties" prevented me from posting under my old username, and I felt sharing the info important enough to just re-register under a different username...

 

anyway -

 

some good debate, here, pleases me to see...

 

my thoughts? I believe that the transition from gym-climbng and single-pitch sport climbing was one contributing factor in the Condorphamine fatality, however its certainly not the only one. When Emily fell, she'd been several hours on a south-facing wall in temperatures approaching 100 degrees. one doesn't encounter these conditions in a gym. Both women obviously knew enough to be on the route safely - after all, they'd successfully climbed it and made the first rappel without incident. so I can't attribute her rigging error to ignorance or inexperience. The girls wouldn't have gotten as far as they did had those been critical factors. In the analysis that DRS and I are preparing for publication, I share a couple of rappelling protocols that have worked for me. First, I almost always LOAD my rappel-brake before unclipping my anchor. If I have mis-rigged (and after climbing for 35 years, twenty as a professional guide, it still happens), my anchor ensures I get a second chance to rig correctly. Second, if I cannot verify that both ends of my rappel rope are on the ground, or on a ledge that for all intents and purposes is as good as the ground, I tie both ends of the rappel rope to my harness just as if I were tying into a double-rope belay system. This leaves no knot to hang up somewhere in a crack, and makes it impossible for me to inadvertantly feed a rope end through my rappel-brake. I do not back up my brake with a prussik or autoblock, but I do run the rappel rope from the brake, between my legs, and to my brake hand. This means that my braking motion is ergonomically identical to braking with the classic hip belay. In 1972, my second season climbing in the Garden of the Gods, this detail saved my life when a swiss-seat came unknotted as I rappeled from the summit of Montezuma's Tower. The half-wrap around my leg gave me enough of a brake to stop myself and use my free hand to flip the rappel rope over my shoulder and complete the rappel in the dulfersitz configuration. I tell this story to every person who makes their first rappel under my guidance. I see no reason that others should have to repeat my mistakes in order to learn from them.

 

Outdoors, I'm as safe a climber as they come, but in a gym, I'm a gumbie. I confess, I have never operated a gri-gri, so you might not want me belaying you at Vertical World.

 

we old farts have a saying: "good judgment is a product of experience -- which is usually a product of poor judgment"

 

there was no internet when I was learning to climb, but it could have saved me a lot of "experience" along the way. o yeah, I firmly believe that the BEST way to learn is to DO, but recognizing that we can also learn from others' doing, lets make this forum a supportive space where we can share, learn from, and yes, occasionally even laugh at our close calls, brain farts, senior moments - those experiences that if we're honest with ourselves, we recognize we have no right to have survived. We're all living on Grace. Let's make the most of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh yeah - almost forgot.. as a result of this accident there is a proposal before the board of Chelan County Mountain Rescue Association that we initiate a campaign to help develop awareness among climbers of the issues facing a climber transitioning from gym-and-sport climbing to what I prefer to call Adventure Climbing. If the board chooses to implement the proposal, we will be looking for partner entities to help us develop materials such as brochures and posters and distribute these to climbing gyms and clubs. please pm montypiton if you'd like to help. (haireball's email address may not be working correctly at present ... one of those "technical difficulties" I alluded to in my previous post)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haireball, I think that's a great idea.

 

Miraculously, a bad accident was avoided by sheer luck up in the Mtn Loop this weekend when two gym/sport climbers were adventure climbing, one fell, and the other was ripped from the belay anchor. Attachment point to the belay anchor? A gear loop...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great project. I see that you are logging on as Haireball, so I'm not sure about the montypiton identity, but anyway I hope you get some participation here.

 

By the way, for what it is worth, I believe Dan Cauthorn wrote a book on this topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if Dan has a book out on this, I haven't seen it, but it sounds like something needed. BTW, I can't take credit for this idea - I'm just trying to drum up support for it...

 

Matt, montypiton is kind of a mr hyde, not a particularly comfortable identity, actually kind of an arrogant ass, but he served a purpose, and I hope he can be quietly laid to rest now that haireball can post again... unfortunately, he's occupying my email address at the moment, which is why pms should be directed to him. If you pm haireball, your message will most likely be lost in cyberspace.

Edited by haireball

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish someone would get bold and construct better gyms! Maybe let you practice simulated multipitch w/ rappels, traverses, or at least let you boulder more than 4 freakin feet off the floor! I might even settle for more realistic holds.. right now we got "top rope", or "lead and jump offs", pretty silly if you ask me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one has mentioned hiring a guide as a way to east the transition. A good guide can teach you a lot. Friends can help too, but they are more likely to have bad habits that transfer along with the good ones.

 

Take your brain and use it. The talk about what to do when you're losing focus is a bit disturbing. If you are losing focus then stop, eat, rest, do whatever it takes to get focus back because no good habits or fancy gear tricks will save you from that fatal moment of inattention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
thumbs_up.gif Second, if I cannot verify that both ends of my rappel rope are on the ground, or on a ledge that for all intents and purposes is as good as the ground, I tie both ends of the rappel rope to my harness just as if I were tying into a double-rope belay system.

 

I think this is a great idea! Thanks for the tip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a quick side-note (although slightly related) I haven't seen anything mentioning the American culture of sport v. trad compared to (please don't rip on me too much here) the French model. Everyone can gripe all they want about about bolted cracks, but the fact of the matter is that outdoor climbing is more of an accessible sport over there because of all the bolts. Although this complicates many things (over-crowding at belays) I found there to be many less accidents on multi-pitch sport routes simply because of how common they are. There were very few gumbies (in my experience) venturing from the "couenne" to "grandes-voies" without going up with a better-educated friend. If I wanted to do this here, it would either be CA or Infinite Clip. Since France is more or less littered with long routes, an afternoon could be spent on a short, easy route, going over the finer points of multi-pitching (anchors, rapelling, etc...).

Just a thought...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rad & Bagsers, you guys are making my day. now at twelve years retired from my AMGA "career", I suppose I can't be accused of commercialism at this point so - for the record, these "great ideas" are not my own. My experience of the AMGA both as a trainer for them, and as a trainee with them would lead me to make the bold claim that a novice climber can probably learn more from a single private day with a fully certified AMGA guide as he or she could glean from a year's membership in a climbing gym. That makes a private guided climb a pretty damn good deal...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This sounds like a pretty good idea, the only back up I've ever used is a prussik above the device.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just read through these posts and really there is nothing better than just accepting the possibility that humans make mistakes. Condor Buttress, Vantage and Yellow Jacket Tower all are perfect places for textbook accidents.

 

It is excellent to see all of these examples discussed and the information readily available for other new climbers so they know what kinds of accidents are most common and how to avoid them as they progress through this inherently dangerous sport.

 

Of course, even the most experienced climbers will make a mistake that results in injury or death. Avoiding it may be impossible but one can hope that the mistake will be small enough to learn from without the cost of one's life or a season spent recovering from a climbing injury.

 

The information on these 4 pages is readily available but still requires some skill to find it. Perhaps we may use this forum to help organize it in a fashion similar to the AAC Accidents book. These discussions are by far the best part of CascadeClimbers.com in my opinion but due to the method in which the discussions and topics are organized, I do not see how a lurker can easily find it without being to some degree, computer savvy. A big button on the home page leading to the case studies would be a start. There are some really good writers here and each one of these accidents are already organized in a way that would make it relatively easy to publish a report.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing about climbing is it is an unforgiving sport, you do one thing wrong and you can die. Like not repelling properly, which seems to be the most common problem people have.

I beleive if you can survive your early days of learning to climb,esp mt. climbing, then you can be an old climber. The only thing you can do with these incidents is try and not repeat the same mistakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say surviving your early days of climbing is half the battle but my friends who have been killed have been very experienced climbers, and especially when it comes to alpine climbing I wouldn't say experience = safety. Especially if you are drawn to ever bigger and more technical alpine climbs.

 

When a friend of mine was missing in the Columbia Icefields some years back, the rangers pronounced them presumed dead, saying that with climbers of that many years' experience they were usually dead if missing so long. I didn't get the impression that from the rangers' perspective, many years' experience translated directly to safer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do run the rappel rope from the brake, between my legs, and to my brake hand. This means that my braking motion is ergonomically identical to braking with the classic hip belay. In 1972, my second season climbing in the Garden of the Gods, this detail saved my life when a swiss-seat came unknotted as I rappeled from the summit of Montezuma's Tower. The half-wrap around my leg gave me enough of a brake to stop myself and use my free hand to flip the rappel rope over my shoulder and complete the rappel in the dulfersitz configuration. I tell this story to every person who makes their first rappel under my guidance. I see no reason that others should have to repeat my mistakes in order to learn from them.

 

I can't picture this--and I'd like to give it a try. How does this work? Anyone have a pic? Or a clearer description?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If they post on cc.com, you for one will belittle and insult them. It could be a good place to talk about such a transition, but for many it is not.

 

I'm new to climbing and have learned that posting here, asking questions does lead to people insulting you. Even when the post is in the newbie section. Its like wtf. Maybe it cause there scared the newbies might learn to climb better than them. I dunno. Just a thought smile.gif.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not new to climbing, nor am I new to being insulted. I also don't pose a threat to anyone that I'll surpass their climbing abilities. But I am concerned about my safety--I think we all have that in common (as well as all being newbies at one point).

 

How is this rapping technique done? I have not seen this done and would like to try it. Thanks for info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Archy, it is fairly simple. Allow the rope to drop down between your legs after you hook up your rappel device. Then reach around behind your butt and take hold of the rope with your thumb extended away from your body. Bring the rope back around to run next to the outside of your hip.

 

For less friction, drop this "breaking" hand back around behind you. The rope runs more or less straight through your legs. For more friction, bring the rope tails forward and accross your lap so you in effect wrap the rappel ropes around your leg and take them toward the other hip.

 

It is a bit tricky to get the fine control so that you get just the amount of friction you want using smaller diameter ropes, but this works pretty well and it is both simple and intuitive.

 

For overhanging rappels on skinny cords, I sometimes add a carabiner to my belay loop or one of the leg loops to maintain the leg wrap. I put the carabiner on the front of my harness, and then after hooking up the rappel device I let the rope drop between my legs and then reach around outside my hip and bring it back around to the front to pass through that biner. The result is that I have to feed the rope through the belay device to lower myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×