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rap knots


corvallisclimb

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Whats wrong with a double fishermans?

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I don't know if this is the best knot for your purpose, but one knot I have used is a square knot - backed up with double fisherman's on each of the tails. There may be stronger knots available, but this one has the advantage of being simple and using knots you already know, as well as the fact that you can untie it without too much struggle even after multiple rappels.

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last weekend I used a double fisherman's knot to join a 9.6 and an 8 for rappel and we lucked out, it worked.

I don't know why it wouldn't work with a 10.8 and a 7, try it at home.

back up each rope end with another double fisherman's knot.

the knots did pull fairly tight but that was good and not really much of a problem untying them.

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the knots did pull fairly tight but that was good and not really much of a problem untying them.

 

This is one advantage to Mattp's suggestion above. The double fisherman's back up keeps the knot secure and the square knot in the middle makes it very easy to untie the two ropes.

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If they are different diameters the most effective knot IMHO, is the double sheet bend:

 

http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/sheetbend.htm

 

He's planning on rapping with it. A sheet bend, double or not, employed as a rap knot would be suicide, IMHO.

 

WTF is wrong with a good ol' double fisherman's? confused.gif

I've been using it for over 20 years, I never back it up with extra frilly things on the tails, and I'm not dead. Werx 4 me.

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I will admit to having rapped off - multiple times - on a 10.5mm and a 7mm tag line using a very-well-dressed overhand. To keep this from possibly flipping down 12-18 inches of tail, I add a second very-well-dressed overhand as a stopper knot.

I know lots of people will protest this. But not once - NOT ONCE - has my knot flipped, or the 7mm cord "slipped".

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EDK w/foot long tails.

 

DF is a bitch to untie and hangs on shit.

Flemish bend (aka retraced 8s) has the same issues.

Square with honkin backups has the same issues.

A "flat 8", (which is like a EDK but using an 8 instead of overhand) is actually a dangerous knot as it will roll/invert on itself at relatively low forces.

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everyone seems to have their favorite knot, the overhand knot (aka edk) with long tails, and pulled tight (all knots should be cinched up tight or "dressed" to make sure they don't untie) is my favorite just cause it's less likely to snag on something when you pull the rope. double fisherman's works well too, just a real pain to untie after repeated rappels. just my two cents cantfocus.gif.

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We've covered this before, but an "overhand" knot (I think it is actually a "double overhand" and it is also called a "water knot") is not the same thing as a "Euro Death Knot." An overhand knot has the tails sticking out opposite ends of the knot and is tied by making a single overhand, then following through with the other rope; the EDK has both tails sticking out the same side of the knot and is tied by taking two ropes and tying a single overhand on both strands.

 

Many of my friends, wary of rappelling on an EDK, are quite happy with the double overhand.

 

knots_EDK.jpg EDK

water3.gif Water Knot

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Gary, that test data gets thrown around ever time this conversation is started. But the knot flipps at loads much higher than any rappel load will encounter - 1200 and 900 lbs in your two examples. And a second double-strand overhand knot (is that a better description Matt? I hate calling it an EDK) stops flipping.

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A square knot is not designed to be used with two different diameter ropes, whereas a sheet bend is. The sheet bend was originally used to attached a rope to the corner of a sail (make a bend in the sail, or sheet, and then bring the rope through and around it). I've never used either of these knots to rap off of, but the sheet bend would seem to make more sense if choosing between the two. Personally I use the EDK first, or a double fisherman's when attaching different diameter ropes.

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Double sheet bends backed up with single fishermans on each tail have been used for joining highlines, etc so it can easily take the load of a rappel and unties very easily. I would not recommend it for that though because it is a gigantor knot. Usually it gets taped up so big pulleys can track over it. It is not "suicide" as someone suggested, but it is perhaps a little silly.

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