G-spotter Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Tax driving in cities, like London does, and see how much better the transit system gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 You've got to have a special permit to drive in downtown London I believe. Â Recycled. Yes cars from the 70's with auto tranys get worse milage. Lets stick to modern vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recycled Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Today's average retail price of petrol in Britian is $6.65/US gallon (about 96p per litre). Prices in Northern Europe are higher than Southern Europe: France and Spain are cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recycled Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Dru, no, I admit I haven't. Â Regarding current vehicles, I'd be really interested in other people's observations of manual vs. automatics in the same car, where you have a good idea of driving style and the mix of city/highway driving. And no, I'm not stuck in the 70s, I'm interested in current differentials. My impression remains that there's still a big difference, but I'd love to hear otherwise from people that know based on experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 My impression from driving an automatic is that I get better gas mileage. Most stick shifts are driven by older guys with Freudian issues and the 'fuel economy' myth is just there for rationalization of their libidinous impulses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recycled Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Hey there, that's a little too close to the mark. Of course, my wife likes her TDI manual too, should I be worried? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Okay, here is another anecdote with an n=2. I used to have an 1982 Honda Civic wagon, similar to the late Klenkemobile. I routinely got 35-40 mpg. I met a woman who had the exact same vehicle except that it had a three speed automatic. She got 23 mpg. Â Sure, modern automatic transmissions are more efficient, but they still are not as efficient as a manual in city driving for someone who knows how to optimize efficiency. Â No matter how efficient an automatic gets, it will never be able to read your mind. What I mean by that is it can't anticipate what you will do next. Â For example, say you are accelerating on the flat and you see a hill up ahead. You decide to leave it in third instead of shifting to fourth. The automatic will shift to fourth and then back to third when the car starts up the hill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 When i was recently shopping for a car, it seemed that every manual was listed with a higher mpg than the automatic. Â the plates in an automatic slip more(?) for smoother shifting, although i think most now have a locking mechanism for freeway cruising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Today's average retail price of petrol in Britian is $6.65/US gallon (about 96p per litre). Prices in Northern Europe are higher than Southern Europe: France and Spain are cheaper. Â Nation City Price in USD Regular/Gallon Netherlands Amsterdam $6.48 Norway Oslo $6.27 Italy Milan $5.96 Denmark Copenhagen $5.93 Belgium Brussels $5.91 Sweden Stockholm $5.80 United Kingdom London $5.79 Germany Frankfurt $5.57 France Paris $5.54 Portugal Lisbon $5.35 Hungary Budapest $4.94 Luxembourg $4.82 Croatia Zagreb $4.81 Ireland Dublin $4.78 Switzerland Geneva $4.74 Spain Madrid $4.55 Japan Tokyo $4.24 Czech Republic Prague $4.19 Romania Bucharest $4.09 Andorra $4.08 Estonia Tallinn $3.62 Bulgaria Sofia $3.52 Brazil Brasilia $3.12 Cuba Havana $3.03 Taiwan Taipei $2.84 Lebanon Beirut $2.63 South Africa Johannesburg $2.62 Nicaragua Managua $2.61 Panama Panama City $2.19 Russia Moscow $2.10 Puerto Rico San Juan $1.74 Saudi Arabia Riyadh $0.91 Kuwait Kuwait City $0.78 Egypt Cairo $0.65 Nigeria Lagos $0.38 Venezuela Caracas $0.12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 When i was recently shopping for a car, it seemed that every manual was listed with a higher mpg than the automatic. Â the plates in an automatic slip more(?) for smoother shifting, although i think most now have a locking mechanism for freeway cruising. Do you mean to say that having a lower-tolerance flywheel translates to more gas consumption? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recycled Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 There's also a similar listing on the last page of this weeks Economist.  I don't know why the price is different. I used:  http://www.whatprice.co.uk/car/retailer-petrol-prices.php  It could be that the aggregate data provided in your listing was derived from national index offices while the whatprice.co.uk is a more direct reading of retail prices. Or I could have screwed up on the exchange rate...  Oh well, gas is more expensive in Europe, and not by a trivial amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 I'd like to see all those gas prices with the taxes removed. Isn't the tax on gasoline in Britain something like $4/gallon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 so move to venezuela and drive a yugo on hugo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Okay, here is another anecdote with an n=2. I used to have an 1982 Honda Civic wagon, similar to the late Klenkemobile. I routinely got 35-40 mpg. I met a woman who had the exact same vehicle except that it had a three speed automatic. She got 23 mpg. Â Sure, modern automatic transmissions are more efficient, but they still are not as efficient as a manual in city driving for someone who knows how to optimize efficiency. Â No matter how efficient an automatic gets, it will never be able to read your mind. What I mean by that is it can't anticipate what you will do next. Â For example, say you are accelerating on the flat and you see a hill up ahead. You decide to leave it in third instead of shifting to fourth. The automatic will shift to fourth and then back to third when the car starts up the hill. Â Wow, a 1982 automatic. Yeah, modern automatics must be much less efficient, because they were 25 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Or I could have screwed up on the exchange rate... Â Maybe one of the college cuties you slobber on can help you solve this mystery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 I'd like to see all those gas prices with the taxes removed. Isn't the tax on gasoline in Britain something like $4/gallon? Â The Economist table was a double bar with tax and raw cost. Their conclusion was that low fuel taxes in the US were promoting wasteful overconsumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BachelorTravis Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Most stick shifts are driven by older guys with Freudian issues and the 'fuel economy' myth is just there for rationalization of their libidinous impulses.  Too bad all the cash you save at the pump just goes into porn since the ladies won't date a guy who drives an automatic wagon.  Drive a stick shift Dru and maybe you'll meet someone who will shift your stick  FYI Freudian issues = sex appeal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Too bad with all that time you spend with your hand on your stick, the automatic still outperforms you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Most stick shifts are driven by older guys with Freudian issues and the 'fuel economy' myth is just there for rationalization of their libidinous impulses.  Too bad all the cash you save at the pump just goes into porn since the ladies won't date a guy who drives an automatic wagon.  Drive a stick shift Dru and maybe you'll meet someone who will shift your stick  FYI Freudian issues = sex appeal I assume there is a reason your avatar is *bachelor*Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 I may have two late Klenkemobiles soon. MP 181A. Tow. '87 944 clutch: gone. $1800 repair; $2700 car. Bleorg. Â My late Klenkemobile--1981 Honda with 282,000 miles--is still in my possession and still runs up to 4th gear. In the mid 90s I used to be able to drive to Couer d' Alene, Idaho on I-90 on one tank of gas (approx. 330 miles on an 8.5-gal tank). In recent years I've made the same trip but could not get anywhere near the distance on the tank. But I do remember tooling around Yellowstone in 2002 and achieving 40mpg (at that higher altitude, no less). Â More recently it seems the car was getting about 250 miles on an 8.5-gal tank. Not bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Too bad all the cash you save at the pump just goes into porn since the ladies won't date a guy who drives an automatic wagon. Â This from a guy who whores himself on national TV? Pardon me if you don't have a credibility problem vis-a-vis 'the ladies'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Educate yourselves:  http://www.theoildrum.com  Peak production WILL occur within the decade. Whether we have enough demand destruction due to market forces to avoid a hard landing remains to be seen. Two of the largest fields in the world are in decline (Gahwar and Cantarell). North Sea peaked a few years ago. Alaska peaked about a decade ago. We WILL NOT drill our way out of this one.  The simple existence of energy sources is not relevant without considering the EROEI (energy return on energy invested...i.e. the net energy after accounting for extraction/production). Many of the hyped technologies are net negative EROEI after accounting for all inputs.  We do not have enough cropland to simulatenously feed ourselves and produce enough biofuels (diesel, ethanol) to operate at our current demand. EROEI for corn ethanol is horrible. Not great for tar sands either, which require huge amounts of water to extract (steam is pumped to liquify/loosen).  The key will be getting diversity, and getting it before an oil shock sends the global economy into a tailspin or instigates energy wars.  My personal view is that battery technology advancement/electric driven with liquid fuel reserves for extra distance is the best bet. We need to oil and nat gas stocks more for fertilizers, chemical feedstocks, pharma, etc than we need it for easy motoring.  We will need geographic diversity...massive solar in the sunbelt, geothermal in the Cascades, Sierra, and Rockies, clean coal in the appalachians, offshore wind farms, etc.  Getting more freight off 18wheelers and into rail helps as well. It's more efficient energy wise, and removes the truck traffic, which reduces road damage and traffic congestion which itself is a huge drain on efficiency.  Lots of tech articles on the site I linked if you look for them. Many academics, oil industry insiders, etc writing for that site and very detailed technical discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recycled Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Or I could have screwed up on the exchange rate... Â Maybe one of the college cuties you slobber on can help you solve this mystery. Â They're too busy driving automatics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 I may have two late Klenkemobiles soon. MP 181A. Tow. '87 944 clutch: gone. $1800 repair; $2700 car. Bleorg. My late Klenkemobile--1981 Honda with 282,000 miles--is still in my possession and still runs up to 4th gear. In the mid 90s I used to be able to drive to Couer d' Alene, Idaho on I-90 on one tank of gas (approx. 330 miles on an 8.5-gal tank). In recent years I've made the same trip but could not get anywhere near the distance on the tank. But I do remember tooling around Yellowstone in 2002 and achieving 40mpg (at that higher altitude, no less).  More recently it seems the car was getting about 250 miles on an 8.5-gal tank. Not bad. Do you include the gas you spill down the side of the vehicle in your calculations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Or I could have screwed up on the exchange rate... Â Maybe one of the college cuties you slobber on can help you solve this mystery. Â They're too busy driving automatics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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