faster_than_you Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 There is a reliable rumor that the NPS upper management at Denali National Park are considering a CLIMBING FEE INCREASE to 1,000 dollars!!! Actually, the rumor is more that the NPS is "proposing" an increase to $750-$1000, but is actually hoping to see it increase to $500. The fee is at $200 now; and that seems terribly high already!!! IMO, this is fucked pure and simple. Consider that what goes down on Denali, will probably trickle to Baker, Rainier, Adams, Hood, Shasta, etc. I recognize that some climbers consider these sorts of peaks "slogs," but for many, they remain the peaks where climbers garner rudimentary skills. It’s difficult to see this sport (and some of the peaks) become the playground for the rich. In the meantime, this "cat" is out of the bag, lets see what climbers are thinking. Perhaps we can wage a preemptive letter campaign? Who's on board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 W is just trying to finance the WAR against Weapons of Mass Destruction. Show a little love, matey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Wonder if it's caused by funding cutbacks from above? Like in Canada the yearly park pass went from around $50 to over $100 in just a couple of years. Or they just realized the fees like on Everest, $50K for a team of 5 (??), and that people will pay even that. So comparatively $500 isn't so much. Wonder if you'll just increase the illicit climbing if you charge too much for the typical "on a budget" climber? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 pretty hard to clmb illegally on denali if you're flying onto the glaciers - course if you elect to slog all the way across the tundra to get there you oughta be able to climb for free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamaker Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 The AAC shot down the fee idea years ago by organizing a "lets all climb the mtn and ignore the NPS" event. Then it came back, yrs later, as a "rescue fee", but, again was shot down because then the NPS would actualy be obligated to rescue folks. A yr later it came back and stuck, despite climbers objections, now a "safety orientation fee" . I went through this orientation, it seemed that the NPS ranger had a sermon written and could not deviate from it, not even interested in answereing important questions like "are there pickets to Denali Pass". You are right, it is the old foot in the door technique. If you sheep let it expand your are just opening the flood gates. Time to sound the alarm, contact local clubs and access folks and get the NPS to pull the whole program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squid Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Yikes! Who would you recommend that we write to? Give us names & addresses (email addresses, too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faster_than_you Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 Yikes! Who would you recommend that we write to? Give us names & addresses (email addresses, too). I was beginning to wonder if anyone cared about this?? I thought there would be a little more outrage over this proposal. Maybe this thread should be moved to the Alaska Forum? The fees are here to stay, but that sort of increase (particularly after they just raised the fee last year) is ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGEOUS! As for fees, it’s important to make sure is that they are reasonable and that they are also dedicated to Climbing/Resource protection programs. Any sort of letter/email campaign would be best drafted to a few key higher ups including the NPS Director, Deputy Director, Regional Director, Park Super and Chief Ranger. It should also include the AAC and maybe the Access Fund (and perhaps the media.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wfinley Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I think people care but there seems to be a lack of discussion anywhere -- most likely because this is considered a "reliable rumor". How do you mount a campaign against a rumor? As for the $200 fee... it's not too high and even for dirtbags it's an amount most can afford (I've yet to meet someone who didn't climb Denali b/c of the cost). I've never understood why people have such an issue with the NPS or their management of the Buttress. If it bothers you so much climb elsewhere (did you know there are other peaks in Alaska besides Denali?). The NPS presence is necessary... without them the WB would be trashed zoo. (PS - FWIW I think $500 is way too high and if this proves to be a real tactic someone is pulling then I'll be happy to write letters in protest.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faster_than_you Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 Your reading too much into my post. The outrage is over the amount! I did not make an issue of what the NPS is doing on the mountain. In fact, I reference the value of a climbing/resource protection program. I would also agree that $200 isn't "too" bad... but... $500, or more? I know to "climb elsewhere"... Thank you, how could I forget? But it sort of stinks to think Denali would be 2K (or 1K) for my climbing partner and me. As for the rumor, you're right. It may not happen that soon, or go that high, but I heard it from a reliable person... And with a gentle nudge agreed it might be good to nip this early. Seems easier to just wait... Anyone can do the research to figure out the names/emails of the people above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wfinley Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Your reading too much into my post. Sorry... forums will do that to you. I agree $500 is too much. However - how do you start a campaign against a rumor? If you contact the NPS all they'll say is it's a rumor. Any NPS proposal change follows a detailed procedure (comment period etc.) - campaigning against the possibility is meaningless in a bureaucratic sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faster_than_you Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 Again, I agree about the "rumor" part of this... Maybe we're just putting the word out. AK is a small place when it comes to climbing. General opinion can have a way of working itself into the system... Before you're looking at three alternatives in a NPS managed meeting. BUT now that I think about it, the NPS just raised the fee to $200 w/o public comment last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paramagic Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 I have a dream... where the park service pulls out of KBC I have a dream... where the park service pulls out of 14 camp I have a dream... where fixed pro is no longer maintained on the headwall or elsewhere and people will actually need to have the skills to climb Denali I have a dream... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashw_justin Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 What does the fee increase serve? Do they actually need the money, or is this to scare off dirtbags? Maybe they can get more rangers up there to make sure people are following the rules, i.e. Leave No Trace? And how do they reconcile the Leave No Trace policy with allowing fixed gear on the mountain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrythellama Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 wow you have to pay to play. tragic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamaker Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 This is still a bad precedent. Watch where your money goes. The rangers are not there to keep house. When have you ever seen a ranger on rt? When have they ever issued a citation for acting like a European and trashing the route? How does it cost $200 per climber for an orientation in Talkeetna and a BC temp hut at 14k? I have not see the numbers, but I bet the vast majority of the cost of the NPS program is to pay for gas an pilots. And we are not talking flights between Talkeetna and the Kahiltna. Look how often they rotate rangers out. Give the bureaucrats an inch, and they will take a mile. Now it is rangers at 14K, next it will be a base on the Kahiltna, then a temp station on the Muldrow, then heli fly-byes of the rts for "info gathering and climber surveys" . . . This will not end unless climbers or congress ends it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faster_than_you Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 This was posted in the AK forum... It has a few assumptions that seem a little off, but the premise of the fee increase is on the mark. As the story goes, the proposed fee increase was announced by the Chief Ranger at a meeting with the guide services. Rumor or not... I think they're planning to raise the fee. NPS will soon announce a $500 climber's fee, up from the current $200. This way they have 18 months for a comment period so it can go into effect 2007. They are playing their cards by announcing a higher $750-$1000 fee and then settling for a $500 fee. It's a mind game so we think we are lucky and should be happy it isn't more. NPS is trying to push a cost-recovery agenda throughout the park system where by the users cover the cost associated with operating the parks. The poster child for why climbers are expensive is the Llama helicopter which costs upwards of $100,000 a year to lease. What NPS does not mention is the Llama budget comes out of a state-wide fire fighting budget, not the Park. NPS claims Denali climber's cost $1.9 million to manage. Divided by the number of climbers one gets the $1000 a head figure. What NPS does not mention in this argument is that it costs $10-20 million (I have heard different estimates from park personnel) to run the entire Park. Cost recovery spread out amongst all the users of the Park would result in a $100 plus entrance fee, but "that would be political suicide." Mountain climbing is protected under ANILCA as a normal use of public lands. Climbers do not make up a large political force and they do not complain like other user groups, namely snow machine users and air services. Any mention of limits or price increases to the air services results in a stream of complaint letters to Senator Ted Stevens and the action is likely stopped in its tracks. I urge you to send a letter to Ted Stevens saying you do not support the fee increase targeted at climbers. We need to get the word out on this or it will quietly happen and only rich people will climb Denali and Foraker. I should add that there has also been talk at NPS to charge all climbers entering the Park the same amount, whether they intend to climb Denali or a no name snow bump on the Eldridge. http://www.alaskaiceclimbing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=109 One interesting point in this post (which originated from a guide service owner) is that climbers don't complain. Or maybe what he's saying is that they don't orgranize as a group very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 They bitch and whine at the drop of a hat around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faster_than_you Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 They bitch and whine at the drop of a hat around here. Another astute CC.COM poster child redefines bitching as someone points out a 500% fee increase? ...this sorta proves the point. Climbers can't seem to agree on anything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Take this fee and shove it I ain't climbin here no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 wow you have to pay to play. tragic. Indeed. Next thing you know alaskans will stop suckling on the federal teat; they take aid like a 3rd world country, why not have the peak fees to go along with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Fear not. I'll be paying the Park Service a little visit. They think they're Above the Law with these fees. Well, they aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faster_than_you Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 Fear not. I'll be paying the Park Service a little visit. They think they're Above the Law with these fees. Well, they aren't. Finally... someone able to throw down a good roundhouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashw_justin Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Steven, What did they call it, that time in Alaska when you were an eskimo indian, and you brought pain and reckoning to the big bad oil company, and then scored it with the vivacious eskimo indian woman in your big log cabin mansion? Maybe you can find some social injustice in the park service to cure with shotguns and karate chops like last time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Ah yes, I was On Deadly Ground when I had to deal with those oil guys. But I showed them. And you bet I got the girl- As soon as I can find my Eskimo jacket with the tassles all over it, the NPS won't stand a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.