terrible_ted Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Does anyone know who has been sawing through the little (<5" diam) logs on the Boston Basin trail? I keep hearing that the FS is not doing maintenance on the avalanche debris fields, although the rangers are still apparantly interested enough in getting to the area so they can hike to 6700' and check to see that parties have permits... I was just wondering if this was an actual example of climbing community self-help, or "covert" but minor maintenance by the the FS rangers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 I talked with one of the rangers when I was up there this weekend, and though I didn't ask him this question, I seem to remember his implying that the rangers were in fact working on it. His specific statement had to do with how the road had opened earlier than expected, so maybe I am just jumping to conclusions. At any rate, there were obvious changes to the path between Saturday morning and Sunday night this weekend, so someone is working pretty hard at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible_ted Posted July 23, 2002 Author Share Posted July 23, 2002 Hi Norman: quote: ...there were obvious changes to the path between Saturday morning and Sunday night this weekend...Yeah, those were pretty much our exact passing times as well and I noticed the same, hence, the question. What were you up for? Did we see you on Forbidden Sunday? We were the first ones up on the route on Sunday, and saw two other groups on our way down. -t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainMan Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 On the way up to Forbidden on Friday night, I saw a climber with hand shears working on the trail. He said since the FS isn't doing anything about the conditions of the trail, he'd take it upon himself to do so. Someone has also sawed through some of the smaller logs in the avalanche debris zone ... although the larger logs remain. We specifically spoke with the ranger about trail maintenance and he said the climber with the shears "wasn't supposed to be doing that". If I had known the condition of the trail to Boston Basin before going up there this weekend I would have brought my own pair of shears and helped out. Aside from the debris zone which blocks a relatively small portion of the trail, however, the trail is in pretty good shape by N. Cascade climber-trail standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 Ha ha, No forest pass, no camping permit - no problem. Another poached trip in the backcountry this weekend. If you camp up on the glacier the rangers are too lazy to stomp up the snow to check for your permits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 As for the trail maintenance didn't you see my team of snafflehounds gnawing down those trees. Unfortunetly they got ambitious and ate my t-shirt and backpack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible_ted Posted July 23, 2002 Author Share Posted July 23, 2002 Hi Norman: Yeah, I was the sketchy looking white guy with a sunburn coming down in front. Thanks for letting us rapp past. Were you the one leading that pitch, or the one following (climbing in boots, I recall)? Like I mentioned above, the ranger climbed up to us at ~6700' to see our paperwork and it sounds like he continued on up to check you out as well. That's actually something I admire. Getting harrassed at the parking lot over my refusal to pay the trailhead tax is quite another thing.... I know there are some spots over on the Quien Sabe that are less visible from lower in the basin, but from where we were camped, you could look right down at them. Maybe MM brought his all-white glacier camo tent. Boy, it was just a beautiful day to be up! I wonder if some of that haze, however, was from the Chelan fire? I remember the smoke from the Stehekin fire last year was pretty obnoxious last September from the Boston/Sahale ridge. -t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 I think the trail is maintained by the large avies sweeping down to the valley floors in winter and by the snafflehounds in summer. I didn't think it was too bad myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 I was the one climbing in boots, but I actually led every pitch since Brad's not into leading. There were a few spots where better friction would have been handy, but I never felt the need to get the rock shoes out of my pack. Instead I carried rock shoes, picket, and axe to the summit for no good reason (except to use the picket to free up the rope stuck in a crack). On Saturday we were tempted to hike up to the shoulder of the E. ridge to camp on rock with nice views, mainly because there were no decent bivy spots on bare ground down below. But I decided not to explore that far, since none of the rock ribs below had any decent flat spots either. I noticed during the climb that the E. shoulder is broad but not flat, so it's probably not worth it to climb so high just for a scenic view from camp. [ 07-23-2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Norman Clyde ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Hey Norman Clyde, Do you still carry that Ice axe with the really long wooden shaft? You know, the one that goes up to your armpits. I allways thought it looked pretty badass in those black and white pictures. [ 07-23-2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Ted, you must have been the group of 4 we passed about one third of the way up the ridge. Brad was not interested in simul-climbing, so our progress was pretty slow, and the third party (Gordy and Gus) summited just a few minutes after we did. We let them go down first, then did belayed down-climbing, one rappel, some 4th class scrambling unroped across some ledges on the N. face, then one more downclimbing pitch to the snow. MtnMan, we were the highest party camped below the glacier, and the ranger was perfectly happy to climb up to us and check our permit. I suspect there are few places in the basin they'd be unwilling to check out, if they thought someone was there. Maybe they don't check further east, below sharkfin-- I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Those axes with the metal heads are too newfangled. Mine has a flint head that I pounded myself. Maybe I'll move up to obsidian someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 This guy probably has one too- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncascadesranger Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 Some clarifications regarding recents comments and mis-assumptions in these recents posts about the route into Boston Basin, the permit system, and ranger patrols. I supervise the rangers who patrol here (and other climbing destinations in NCNP),have done many of the patrols to BB myself over the past decade, and offer this: The Boston Basin area, and associated peaks is within the North Cascades National Park, not under Forest Service jurisdiction. There are no "FS" rangers up there, only NPS (National Park Service) Rangers. The patrols are currently assigned randomly, with different rangers assigned to the area each week. Some days/evenings they might make contacts on one side of the basin, sometimes another side, although there is usually enough time to cover it fairly well from underneath Torment over to Sahale Arm. Sometimes we patrol not just the flats below Sharkfin but on up to the summit (last week) or Forbidden (previous week), Sahale (week before)... etc. While some of the duties must be doneeveryweek, like maintaining composting toilets, we enjoy getting above 6000' whenever we can, (as otherwise implied here) and the ability and interest to do so is a part of the job. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about though regarding the permits. For the vast number of excellent climbing days we've had this season, there were Boston Basin permits available. They are available the day of, and one day prior to the start of your trip, first-come, first-serve. After hours in Marblemount, they are available by self-issue outside the station. Saturday nights and some Friday nights are indeed tough if you don't arrive early. Please consider that this permit system (in place at NCNP since the 1970's) has objectives beyond providing cat and mouse games for rangers and climbers. The Parks, especially those with designated Wilderness as this one is, have mandates to balance recreational use with preservation. It is very clear that use, type of use, #'s of people, etc is directly tied to certain types of resource degradation. Fortunately we find that the far majority of climbers and others who love these mountains are willing to deal with a little bureaucratic red tape (permits)to preserve this magnificent place. The avalanche debris: Given that the route into BB is in the "cross-country zone" classification the Park will not automatically clear this debris, as it would have if that avalanche had hit the nearby Cascade Pass trail (in the maintained constructed trail classification). The management plan for this Wilderness states that most of it will be free of human manipulation (from trail construction to tramways) and again, we find that most North Cascades users want it that way. When mother nature splashs a little more risk and challenge into the experience in the form of unpleasant debris to cross, the NPS can't get subjective about what the Wilderness Plan dictates. However, nothing is 100% unchangeable in land management - it's your Park - and questions or most importantly comments, are best made to the ranger station in Marblemount and/or the Superintendent. My guess is that would more likely get the debris cleared over encouraging others on this site to bring their pruning shears. And it's true, the public isn't allowed to take on their own trail (or other resource management) projects in National Parks. Kelly Bush, Park Ranger North Cascades National Park 360-873-4500,x35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 quote: And it's true, the public isn't allowed to take on their own trail (or other resource management) projects in National Parks Darnitall! There go my plans for making a trail up Marble Creek! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible_ted Posted July 29, 2002 Author Share Posted July 29, 2002 Hi Kelly: Thanks for the post , it's nice to hear something that moves past pure conjecture every now and then... I notice, however, that you did manage to skip commenting on whether of not any of your folks have been bucking a few BB avy timbers on the side... To tell the truth, I really don't care if any maintenance is done on the trail. BB is a nicer climbing trail than most, and I spend enough time doing x-country routes that I just figure downed timber as part of the cost of doing business. As for NPS vs. FS: You're all pickle suits to me! -t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 However, nothing is 100% unchangeable in land management - it's your Park - and questions or most importantly comments, are best made to the ranger station in Marblemount and/or the Superintendent. It's been my experience over the past 20 years that most rangers think that they own the park and do everything they can including lying to keep folks out of, "their," park. The same could be said of the FS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 texplorer said: Ha ha, No forest pass, no camping permit - no problem. Another poached trip in the backcountry this weekend. If you camp up on the glacier the rangers are too lazy to stomp up the snow to check for your permits. Yeah dude! Lets do some crimes, like get sushi.... AND NOT PAY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Thanks for the post Kelly. FWIW I think the avalanche debris and bushwacking add flavor to the climbs in Boston Basin. There doesn't need to be a cushy, "handicap access" trail hacked and chopped out wherever people climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregm Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Off_White said: Yeah dude! Lets do some crimes, like get sushi.... AND NOT PAY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 isnt a ranger engaging people in the wilderness a vilaolation of the wilderness act? these rangers are "TOOLS" of the man and therefore should not be allowed into the a wilderness area. Please Rangers, wheter you be forrest or NPS please leave me alone and do not violates my rights as an american citizen to enjoy the natural beauty that our land holds for us. and as a side note, i noticed the ranger here is all worked up over being a forest tool, vs an NPS tool. you both work for the dept of the interior, so you are the same thing! someone out there to impose your interpetation on the lands that belong to all americans! do your trail work, clean your toliets and leave me alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! have a nice day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryland_moore Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 No Rangers up Boston Basin this weekend! I didn't have a NW Forest Pass for two days at the TH and no ticket! There was even a National Park Service Vehicle at the TH and no one. Also, all permits were taken for the bivy sites, but not a sign of anyone bivvying the entire weekend. What up? The Twilight Zone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa_Eagle Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 there's a path through the avy debris this year. So long as you stay at the same elevation (there's a herd path that goes up the middle of the debris, DO NOT take it), it takes literally 5 minutes (I timed it) to get across the first (largest) debris. Hardly worth losing any sleep over. Thanx to the people who did enough work on it to get it to this point, but I think it's fine the way that it is at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobinc Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Brush is a preserver of wilderness values. Plus, ya gotta admit, having a trail of any sort into BB is a bonus, given how close it is to the road and the peaks you access. It's easy to make fun of the rangers, but most of them are good people trying to do a good job. Consider the culture they operate in and think how you would do if you were in their shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 erik said: and as a side note, i noticed the ranger here is all worked up over being a forest tool, vs an NPS tool. you both work for the dept of the interior, so you are the same thing! someone out there to impose your interpetation on the lands that belong to all americans! do your trail work, clean your toliets and leave me alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Erik, Forest Service is Dept of Agriculture, while NPS is Dept of Interior. I have worked for both in the past, too. Unless you've been on that side of the fence, shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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