kevbone Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 OK, you win, as Crimper pointed out earlier, we cannot stop you lawfully. We can only ask and ask and ask. So let it be known, you are now completely going against the grain and are going against the consensus (read pages 1-15). Again Joe, I want you to know I have no problem with you or your work at beacon, it’s greatly appreciated. It’s just the use of the web. Would you say the senor most member to the BRCA is Jim? I would and he hates the use of the web. It makes him want to puke. So you are going against the founding member and the consensus. Just so it is now documented! We the consensus have asked you to stop, and you have said no! Who made you god? You! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 First, it appears that you are making a claim that proximity is the defining factor of being local. On some simple level I agree but I a more meaningful sense this argument is BS that simply dissolves into a “surf nazi” mentality. I have been to Beacon 2x year (on average) since the first Thomas guide - ~60 trips. I bet I will continue to go there for years to come. Assuming an average season of 7/15-10/31, a “local” would have to go every weekend during the season for over four years to have gone as much as I have. To me it is nonsense to believe that the “Local” has anymore “right” to control Beacon than say me. It seems that everyone has an equal right to be involved, whether they have any influence is simply a matter of how they are organized and how much effort the put forth. Local in your eyes seems to be “those who agree with JH”. Speaking for myself only: I agree that being more inclusive is a good thing. Everybody who climbs out there with any kind of regularity and loves the place should have a voice. Second, I can care less about sport climbing issues. But you do seem to again make the claim that non-locals (Seattle?) making an attempt at opening Beacon to sport climbing. I am not aware of any attempt by Seattlites to turn Beacon into anything. It’s a Wa State Park. I would think the Parks Department would agree that Wa residents should have input into how their parks are run. That the BRCA filled primarily with Oregon residents actively discourages input from “non-local” WA residents is something I find interesting about the whole affair. Go ahead fight the good fight but so much of the fight seems to be simply tilting at windmills. Nobody should be discouraging anybody, no matter what their location. So you know, I don’t think anybody in Washington see's this as an “Oregon vs Washington” issue. Plenty of Washington residents have posted on this thread and not brought it up till you did. I doubt that the sport climbing thing will never happen at Beacon, but having some bolted routes available on the East Face would be interesting IMO. There’s plenty of existing routes there now, we should be climbing on them. I like the idea of thinking, planning and discussing before putting in new bolts and routes. (I have been guilty of not doing this previosly, my bad) South side routes are already pretty crowded, if someone wanted to put a bolt line inbetween 2 cracks which are 5 feet apart, I think about everyone would take exception ot it. It is, however, the stupid offensive kind of thing a Noob gym climber will do. Third and perhaps most importantly I believe that BRCA has a responsibility to broadcast its activities and goals throughout the climbing community which includes the use of the web. You have been doing this. I was inspired to post in an effort to encourage you not to stop when Kevbone was asking you to. I have no desire to get involved with all the petty arguments going on at Beacon. I appreciate the clean-ups and bolt replacement. I suspect that some of the “petty arguments” you mention, the various complaints and yelling at others, are that things are just being done, and then concerned climbers who would like to be involved and have a voice are later told about it AFTER IT IS DONE, and not the reverse, that may be the real issue here. Reading it on the internet may be just the last step of the kick in the nuts process these folks see. I wonder if reduced activity levels at Beacon this year might be the result of people being turned off by the tone of the postings. By the way I have been to Beacon once this year. Nah, but ring us up when you get down again Peter if you want to hang out or need a belay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markd Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 If it was a lost arrow it was still there. What was Arent's rationale for the pin at that time? I'm guessing it was the same as mine. I replaced it slightly to the side with a bugaboo as the shrub had pressured out that spot. Yes, McGown is listed as the FFA of Stone Rodeo in Olson's book but Jim and I did it in May '87 (I'll have to check with Jim on the date, pretty sure it was May however which would put it between Bob's FA and FFA dates...). Once Jim saw it walking down the trail that was as far as we got. It was the same day we freed from the Pipeline anchor out left to the top center of the Arena of Terror intent on freeing the center column before the girls called the whole thing off due to encroaching darkness, and mainly because they wanted to get something to eat and were sick and tired of watching us climb by that point. i'm going to *try* to stop my part in these circular arguements, as i feel it's not really helping. points are just refuted and the same actions continue to happen. in arents defense, he added a pin(which is not fixed pro) to the route. this is more than a little different. joseph are you saying stone rodeo didn't have a bolt on it when your friend freed it in 87? had it been chipped yet? see all you beacon fools tonight at jim o's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 in arents defense, he added a pin(which is not fixed pro) to the route. this is more than a little different. joseph are you saying stone rodeo didn't have a bolt on it when your friend freed it in 87? had it been chipped yet? Mark, I think it's agreed we are all wanting to start tapering this all off and I think it is, it's this years version of the tree discussion... Relative to Arent's pin (and I'm not accusing, just contrasting) and not to further the argument, but pins are by any definition I know fixed pro and always have been along with bolts. I certainly make no distinction between bolts and pins relative to fixed pro other than to say after replacing all those anchors it's a hell of a lot easier to tell the quality of a pin placement versus a bolt placement 10, 15, or 20 years later - I'll take a welded pin out there over a bolt any day. From the Devil's Tower climbing management plan and several climbing glossaries: Fixed protection or fixed anchor - is permanently placed protection left in the rock, typically a bolt or a piton intended to be permanently placed. Fixed protection is usually applied when no "clean" opportunities are available. As far as Stone Rodeo, as best as I can recall it didn't have those bolts, that many bolts, or in all those locations - it may, I believe, have had one or two buttonheads/split shanks and some bad pins as I remember it - which isn't necessarily all that well. I'll have to go look sometime. I have no knowledge of chipping of any kind, though both Jim and I were very cognizant of such activities and given the way the rock changes to that light gray out there I suspect we woulld have commented on any such thing had we noticed it. It was classic Jim - he was a gymnast and did rings in college and still free solos .11s to this day - he never liked pro much so has always run things out comfortably. And given we were all about big roofs I do remember he made the thing look pretty damn casual at the time - he's very irritating that way. The day after that we tried to free a route through the biggest roof on the East face right across from where the trail makes the first sharp bend by the big tree - it was a monumentally stupid and over-reaching epic and probably the most harrowing and educational retreat we ever did anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Would you say the senor most member to the BRCA is Jim? I would and he hates the use of the web. It makes him want to puke. So you are going against the founding member and the consensus. Just so it is now documented! Kevin - read this again from my earlier posting: Second, and as I've explicitly stated before, I don't post the BRCA notices as a journal, because I want to hear myself talk, or to impress anyone - I post them as publically auditable account of the BRCA work so that WDFW, WSP, Gorge Commission, and any other agency personnel can refer to them in their agency reporting. That gives the BRCA standing to take part and have a say in the management of climbing at Beacon Rock. It's a vehicle that, along with backing and reports from the BRSP Staff and David Anderson of the WDFW, means when WSP, WDFW, Skamania County, FS, or the Gorge Commision has questions or issues with climbing at Beacon they come to us first and not a Seattle or National-based climbing organization with more visibility and "credibility". In the end that means Jim Opdycke, Bill Coe, myself, and you get a say in what goes on out there rather than have state-wide edicts laid on the place or decisions made solely in Olympia with the input of climbers who aren't Beacon locals. That is why the BRCA notices are here and why they will continue and are also why you were able to climb out at Beacon for the past month. Also, Jim Opdycke understands exactly why I'm posting these BRCA notices and agrees with it - but as of last night he was at a loss as to why you would even bring up this Reasonable Richard topic online as am I as well. And with regard to everything being "fine" before we reconstituted the BRCA - nothing was fine. There was a decade of acrimonious relationships (even among climbers), Beacon didn't open early, everything had to be done pirate, it was covered with a heavy load of loose rock, covered with a grand assortment shit and / or decaying anchors, and all but a couple of the South face columns had completely grown over from neglect - "fine", you say? Not to my eyes and not when the Climbing Management plan is up for review without any input from local Beacon climbers (a situation that is now turned around 180 degrees - hell, they are asking for input from Jim Opdycke now). It is my position on the issue of BRCA Notice postings and it will not be changing. And I would also encourage all of you to stop by the BRSP and introducing yourself to Erik and John and discuss climbing management issues at Beacon with them as well - they are the first line of responsibility in the matter and you just might be surprised at what you discover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 (edited) "Also, Jim Opdycke understands exactly why I'm posting these BRCA notices and agrees with it - but as of last night he was at a loss as to why you would even bring up this Reasonable Richard topic online as am I as well" You’ve got to be kidding! As to why I brought up the retro bolting job you did, on line. Was to call you out on it! How would you like it if I went up on Lost Warriors and added one or two bolts? And please, don’t stray for the question. How would that make you feel? Edited July 26, 2006 by kevbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 So that's how you decided would be a good way to not have things posted online? How about answering these first: - Did you also "call" yourself and Arent "out on it" when you guys did exactly the same thing on the same routes when you established a fixed pin? - Did any one else "call you guys out on it"? - Did you consult with Olson and Nathan before doing it? - How did you two go about establishing a consensus before you did it? - How come it never entered your mind in this very conversation to mention you guys slapped a piece of fixed pro on these routes as well, when that was the exact topic of discussion? Or are you also claiming the "pins aren't fixed pro" defense? Well, I thought the whole to do was ramping down, but I obviously could have been wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillygoat Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Round 6: GRIDBOLTER vs. HIP BELAYER!!! ding, ding! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Just what I thought. You never answered the question! Do I have to ask it again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Lost Warriors? Kevin, add what you like - on lead... But back to the blantant hypocracy at hand, now you answer my questions above... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I think the difference between what me and Arent did was I had only been climbing maybe 9 months to a year. Basicaly, I did not know better. Where you have been climbing for 30 years, you knew better. And, Jim thinks (but is not sure) the piton was taken out a short while later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Lost Warriors? Kevin, add what you like - on lead... It's got to be better than using crack N' Ups and Ball-Nuts like you did! Might see a 2nd ascent eventually if you toss in a bolt or 2! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Well, given I replaced it I'd say it was still there. Yep, I do know all the issues and ethics and I (and Jim) made the call that the column access issues warranted the bolt. Check with Jim, but neither of us has changed our minds in that regard at the moment. But I can pull the bolt faster than you could pull the pin, so whether is stays is still up for some debate - go get on it and report back to Jim or Bill... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 (edited) What would you think to just giving it proper cleaning? Like all the moss off, so we could see where to climb. Edited July 26, 2006 by kevbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Lost Warriors? Kevin, add what you like - on lead... It's got to be better than using crack N' Ups and Ball-Nuts like you did! Might see a 2nd ascent eventually if you toss in a bolt or 2! We did do it with a bunch of successive crack N' Ups and lowe balls in row on several pitches but retro'ed pins in those spots later after folks complained they didn't have access to that gear and didn't want to do free leads on "aid" gear (I've taken long falls free climbing over both lowe balls and a #2 crack N' Up and they both hold and can be removed easily if used appropriately and both have been available in the past week on ebay...). Layton and Marcus did the 2nd ascent last year, and though I forget exactly what Mike said, I think they may have aided some on the last pitch, but I could be entirely wrong about that. In any case it did sound like they both had a good time on it. More folks should go up and give it a whirl. Just aim up and right at the Young Warrior p1 and keep aiming for the biggest square roof on the SE corner arete. After that start angling back towards the large ancient pine at the top of the corner down slab from the top of Young Warriors. It was also retroed with good anchors at the belays. You can also bail at the top of the third pitch with two 60's and will drop you right onto the Broadway rap chains. Kevin: What would you think to just giving it proper cleaning? Like all the moss off, so we could see where to climb. Bill and I gave it a very thorough pitch-by-pitch cleaning before Karsten and I did the FFA. The first pitch off of YW is a bit chossy and the winter probably left the usual spendthrift on that pitch, but otherwise it is relatively very clean compared to the FA and also free of [some unusually large] loose rock. p3 - p5 are neither chossy or dirty. One word of caution - you should not embark on the third pitch of Lost Warriors if anyone is down below on Boardwalk or Rythmn Method which are directly under p3 and p4. Also, the rap from the [rap] anchor to the right of p3 about 3/4's of the way up that takes you to the Boardwalk chains does have loose rock in the section immediately above Boardwalk so take care on the rap - it was also cleaned but caution is still the word of the day. No one should be below you above p2 - if they are you should abort back to p2 (I have had to several times) or have them leave until you are at the p3 rap anchors (and only do that if you have two 60's as you can't get down with one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Thanks for the update, I was actually asking about RR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Oh, sorry - Shane cleaned the actual route portions of Reasonable Richard and Local Access last Sunday and Jim and I had previously thoroughly cleaned the moss from the trail up to where the routes split... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I'd heard about Layton and Marcus going up there too and doing a second ascent. Probably lost. Lost Warriors. Actually I was kidding earlier about adding bolts so somebody will do the route. I saw Karston wrote it up for Mountain Project here in case anyone wants to read about it-----------> Lost Warriors described We should trundle all the sh*t off of the little corner there and make a direct start off the ground. Probably 5.5 or so once the dirt is off. BTW, Kevin, RR looks relatively clean and moss free. Shane dude (and Jill) cleaned it up and gardened some last Sat. If he gets a vote, Shane, when asked what his thoughts were, would prefer leaving the bolt there. Better than augering into the dirt if you boff it from up high. I don't think he'd be offended if you want to yank it though. Course, I heard that dude supposedly leads hard 11 trad....but there's one vote for leaving the bolt in the 5.9 route from a guy who styles hard stuff but isn't online if that matters to anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 I'd heard about Layton and Marcus going up there too and doing a second ascent. Probably lost. Actually I was kidding earlier. I saw Karston wrote it up for Mountain Project here in case anyone wants to read about it-----------> Lost Warriors described Bill, thanks for reminding me - I forgot entirely I need review/talk with Karsten about fixing his description if he want's it to stay up there. Until then don't use that description - use the directions I posted above and I'll try to review the MP one and talk with Karsten in the next couple of days if he and Raluca are back from the honeymoon. I'd never been to a Romanian wedding reception before - interesting food and drinks - between the Romanians and Texans I think the Romanians were holding their own better by the end of the night... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Actually, I must have been looking at the pics of you as I didn't notice anything wrong with the discription of the route. "Lowe ball pitch". "Joseph styling the roof" I have some pics of Karsten pulling the crux I'll look around for them. I was saying that you need a boat anchor or more gear on pic #2 if you ever want to get a real workout on these FA's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Wish I had some pics of you wandering over on the FA and trying to cram the pro and force the route over that other huge roof on the right (which will probably still unled when they put me in the dirt). You got stones dude. Watching you go for that unclimbed 10 foot roof several times made my boyz shrivel and my palms sweat. Really. Nice job, nice effort! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 Ditto to you for the last pitch - quivering flakes, steady cahones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackedribs Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Hey gang, somehow I lost a #3 camalot on Saturday at Beacon climbing with Jaime, I think I had it in my hand at the base of Blownout, if anyone happens to find it and doesn't mind passing it back my way, that would be greatly appreciated. Bob Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 ================================================= Beacon Rock Update - 8/1/06 ================================================= Anchor Replacement Project Anchors replaced to-date this year are: "Pipeline" "Double Dirty Overhang" (top) "Excaliber" (lower) "Grunge Book" (both) "Borderline" (both) "Blownout (both)" "Pirates" (top, bare) "Bluebird" (top, rap) "Right Gull" (bare) "Wrong Gull" (bare) The "Right Gull" anchor was the worst anchor replaced to-date and some folks had wisely been using some backup slings/rings to rap from. This was a very old chain anchor and the lefthand hanger was on a severely rusted 1/4" bolt that broke simply under the weight of the breaker bar - there wasn't even a chance to apply pressure to it. The righthand bolt broke with next to no pressure as well, requiring only 20 degrees or so of rotation before breaking. Also, this isn't the best place to rap, but if you do it on a single rope then go to the anchor on top of "Wrong Gull" and rap again there versus using the single orange sling/ring lower down at the top of "Sorcerer's Apprentice" and "Old Warriors Never Die"; in general you're better off to just keep heading up to Grassy Ledges. [Edit: Just returned from checking and reseting the pins above the belay on "Right Gull". The first pin, a small, shallow angle, came flying out with the first slight funk, the second pin, a lost arrow, was good. It's doubly lucky no one dove hard on that first pin given it is an awkward start off the belay there. Had someone fallen hard, pulled the pin, and tumbled off the column top the odds of the old anchor holding it was close to zero. ] Hangers were replaced with camo'd ones or painted on the bolted routes around tunnel #1 and on "Old Warriors Never Die". Dogs and Parvo If you must bring your dogs out please make sure they stay leashed and also that they are vaccinated for Parvo which is rampant throughout the BRSP. NW Parvo FAQ Peregrine Monitoring Peregrine monitoring has continued despite the early opening. It appears the Beacon pair were successful elsewhere, probably Hamilton Mountain, and had two chicks which have been very active out at Beacon for the past month until a week ago. What is believed to be the Beacon female was found dead on the road West of Beacon and the two ever-present juveniles haven't been seen or heard since Monday last. At that time one was seen in formation with a flock of seagulls out in front of the island and it was attempting to "nip at their heels" though the gulls were basically just scooting out of the way and shifting positions and ignoring it thus raising some concerns as to whether the juveniles can feed themselves yet. David Anderson, the WDFW raptor biologist, said the male would feed them if necessary and that they mature very fast and then are forced to leave to find their own turf so the fact that we suddenly aren't seeing them isn't necessarily a bad sign, but possibly one of a normal course of events regardless of the fate of the female. Still, if you see or hear one of them please email Beacon.Rock@AvaSys.com, as the info would be good to have. Joseph Healy, Jim Opdycke, Bill Coe Beacon Rock Climbers' Association Beacon.Rock@AvaSys.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 I can anecdotaly back up this quote by Joseph from 10/13/05: "Again, anything is possible, but I'd still maintain that the bolts on the routes I've mention have, do, and will attract way more people that otherwise would never visit than the updates ever will." On our way down the trail on monday a kid stopped my and asked if their were bolts all the way to the top. I said no, that you had to use gear. the look on his face was a mixture of dissapointment and fear..... the parking lot was virtually empty on sun evening when we drove through and there was hardly anyone there on monday...defientally less than at 32/38 on a weekday we really enjoyed the 'adventure' aspect of the south east corner route and the grassy ledges were quite clean!! so thanks for the hard work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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