RuMR Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I don't think it cares... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JensHolsten Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Hey Rudy, I fully agree. I think if you take time to hear the tone of my post, you'll see that a chopping war is the last thing I want. Taking out bolts deemed unecessary by the Index community as a whole is more along the lines of what I was talking about. I wouldn't take any action unless I was there with the folks who played significant roles in the development of the cliff. You're right though, a chopping war would do more good than harm. Jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I think a more worthwhile effort for you to be engaged in is setting standards for the addition of new bolts. Removing bolts here and there is bound to be controversial one way or the other. Obviously, someone, at one time or another, thought the bolt was necessary or they wouldn't have gone to the effort of placing it. An example is the new route off of princely. Inacan, thought the bolts were necessary (my guess, he wanted to preserve the freeclimbing on the flake as opposed to getting it bashed out and made easier from using pins)...Pope, on the other hand, thinks that the bolts shouldn't be there...Who is right???? Depends on the perspective... I think its a mistake to go and remove the odd bolt here and there...what will it serve???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Not really. The hole is still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Go chop them all! With regard to pins vs. bolts, over time I have come to the conclusion that it is often best to use a bolt over a pin. One reason is constant theft. For example, Bat Skins one of the best stemming problems in the state is no longer protected because someone stole the knifeblades. The second is pins age very quickly at Index. I have pulled many pins out with my hand at Index -pins that I have placed and considered bomber at the time I placed them. The bottom of Deal has a bolt that was not on the FA (which was ground up by the way) there is a 5.10 move which if you fell and the pin pulled you'd hit the deck. I haven’t climbed this route since the pin was turned into a bolt but I think that a bolt is preferred. With regard to the route you mention there is a further complication: I am not sure that “former pin crack” is the proper term. Beckey’s guide was filled with significant errors and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was never climbed until now. Adding fixed gear to old aid climbs at Index has been done since the late 70s. So it is undeniably an Index tradition. This has been primarily with dirty unpopular routes. Non-dirty aid routes were usually left without adding gear. I added bolts to two aid climbs. One was not to free it but rather to protect the rock from further damage. (Dana’s Arch) Definitely not successful there. The other was I added a few bolts to the Shield pitch on 10%. In the late 80s I tried leading the Diamond and figured with a bolt or two it would easily go (and be a great climb) but frankly wasn’t into adding bolts. Some others worked on trying to free some other aid routes and there was a bit of discussion about what was acceptable. (eg the bolts on Zipper roof) Consensus seemed to be that at some point the big aid routes should be left alone. This was mostly because some were willing to enhance the rock. The way I see it two of the greatest free projects in WA are the initial section of 10% and the Waterway route. It would be a shame to see these bolted into sport routes. By the way I replaced all the bolts on the Waterway with 12mm stainless last year. I forgot my fork so most of the bolts remain. (Lazy?) In some cases there were 6 bolts per anchor. The Lower Wall has always had a bunch of short pitches with bolt anchors (ie Iron Horse, 10%, JG, Misc aid routes, Narrow Arrow) there is nothing new about this. I think it is the result of the cliffs history as an aid training crag. What is new is that some new fixed pieces have been appearing. Virtually every route I was involved with using the ground up method at Index has had new fixed pieces appear. This is not true of routes that have been cleaned top down. Index has a wide variety of routes - most people climb the same old shit. Get out explore. Even exploring the Lower Wall would yield a bunch of great routes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 nuff said. climb the filthy dirty skanky rock. leave the scrub brush in the tub and jam the dirt you posers. if you can't deal with nature's cards, go back to preschool and relearn the sharing lesson. its not all about you or me...really no one gives a fuck, even if you are jibe........................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulreaper Posted July 29, 2005 Author Share Posted July 29, 2005 End result: a surprisingly productive discussion. I have certainly taken heed at some of the suggestions here, and realize that my efforts regarding fixed gear should primarily be two-fold: to set good precedents if and when I bolt (a problematic assertion of standard, I know), and to replace fixed mank where feasable. Now, I'll get the fuck off the interweb and go climbing. In other words, thanks (almost) all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 I would add that, to my eyes at least, the cliff is overall looking pretty good. Sure, there are some things I don't particularly approve of, and we could and sometimes should debate this or that specific bolt or bush, but Index has in my mind clearly been cared for. I really appreciate the fact that you no longer see heaps of rappel webbing all over the cliff, the trails are generally in good shape, and cleaning/pruning efforts have nearly all been undertaken with care to clean up the mess and avoid leaving hacked stumps or other unsightly or inconvenient mess behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Things looked nice out there this week. Cleaning and trundling are just part of climbing, and Index deserves to be taken care of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Things looked nice out there this week. Cleaning and trundling are just part of climbing, and Index deserves to be taken care of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirp Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Unfortunately times they are a changing. The quality and respect found in the mindset of our generation has been forsaken for the greed and superficial personification of immediate gratification of the new generation. Eric, lets toast a glass to what was and brace ourselves to the new world of oblivious ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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